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[Nick Hughes]

If you guys read all the threads you'll see that I've posted something on the Knife Forum with regards to the tone of this and other emails so please read that first before getting your hackles up.

I advocate forms (kata) as a valid training tool.  A lot of guys who've drifted away from traditional karate into things like JKD, combatives and NHB tend to write them off as innefective etc.

Would like to get your opinions as to why you think they're no good (assuming you do) and then we can talk about some things that might make you change your mind.  (As mine was when I was taught them properly).

Over to y'all

N

[mleone]

They are great for focus and meditation but they have no business in the street if the application is not taught.

If they have application they have value!
If they are taught to begginners for discpline they have value.'

No Application No value is the rule I use here!

Our form training lies in the Cognitive brain when we are attacked we use the reactive part of our brain not the cognitive. When we react the application could come out however that depends on the scenario your in and will your application be applicable at that moment? But its not your first reaction unless you indeed happen to be in the correct scenario. Some train form and kata with out application its good for balance and focus and prerequisite for beginners. Under stand Im not debasing forms. They have their use. But application is so much more important.

Form without Application is an empty dance!

Remember one thing! Does a street phsycho path attack with a round house kick or a spinning back first? Does he attack with BJJ? The answer is no---------- he is random,strategic and chaotic and relies on your fears.
See the point? Train defending a roundhouse is fine but what are the odds of getting one on the street? Slim because real fights are complete and utter chaos. Form V.S. Chaos?
A street fighter is like the tazmanian devil and you have to jump in his whirlwind and attack with his flow of energy.

People on the street do not DOJO attack with form techniques, it is more like an assassination.
 

[Hock]

I think that almost anything is better than sitting on the couch and doing nothing.

I have had to learn many forms through the years and can barely remember a scrap of them now. Today, I would rather bang a war-post/wooden post, BUT...my designed war-post work-outs are...well...could be forms of sorts...in a way? I work off of a list. I follow the list. Someone with binoculars looking at me while doing this might say, "Look, Hock is doing forms!"

Am I? or is it a semantical situation? What is one man's form might be another's solo work out list? Five punch Thai drill...a short form?

I have nothing against forms per say...I just have something against stupid movements inside forms that create bad muscle memory from thousands of reptitions. It always scares me to see that classical fist back posted on the on hip or rib cage that seems to run so standard with almost any traditional forms you see. Do that thousands of times and it could be a problem.

Are forms such a problem?
Or are unsafe moves inside forms the real problem?

Hock

[szorn]

As Hock pointed out, it's not necessarily forms that are bad, but non-functional movements that are bad. Working with forms based on modern tactical and functional movements might be an ok thing to do. However, we must first ask ourselves what we are trying to accomplish with forms training? Building muscle memory? Building coordination? Building attributes? Or something else? If a student is forced to train solo, modern forms might become a necessity, along with impact training on bags, posts, etc.. However, if the student has access to a willing partner, forms should be set aside for more functional and realistic partner drills and scenario training.


Steve

[Joe Hubbard]

Forms often fall into what I call a “traditional reflex.”  In other words even most instructors don’t know why or what they are doing them for let alone the hoards of followers that practice this.  Many systems keep them alive because of what some Chinese guy may have said 300 years ago.  I cracked up once watching a famous Kung Fu guy explaining that out of one of the three Wing Chun forms the head butt is secretly hidden there.  The issue here I think relates more to system and/or style, interpretation of those and the clinging on to the tradition that you have been exposed to throughout your life.  If all you know is Judo, you will then see everything that another person does through a Judo perspective.  Recently a Silat player wanted to see some of Hock’s stuff.  When I showed him he said, “Oh he is just doing Silat” or the Wing Chun guy who said, “All your material comes from Wing Chun.” 

I have my own interpretation of the “finger pointing to the moon” story.  The moon in my opinion is what Hock calls “The Essence of Combat.”  The finger represents “style or system.”  Too many people are concentrating on the finger and still don’t get The Essence of Combat Theory.  As Hock explained it to me the last time he was in the UK- “The essence of combat comes before martial arts style or systems.  These are all the generic, immutable and re-occurring combative principles that transcend all style, system, nationality and/or uniform.  So don’t pay attention to the finger or you’ll miss all the heavenly glory that the essence of combat offers. 

Preset forms may have their value, but what is stopping all of us with making up our own forms.  Any of the SFC material you can isolate or piece meal together and then “Tai Chi” them through slow and dynamic movement for self-perfection.  Remember what appears to be a complex set of motor movements is often just simple things put together.  Use your own initiative to come up with your own moves!  This way out of a “source material” of ideas you can start to learn how to improvise very similar to the way a jazz musician plays a solo.

Stay safe

Joe

[Chris Roberts]

Although I haven't practised forms for some years now, I'm sure they helped get me to the level I'm at today. It's right to say that you couldn't stand in front of an attacker and expect to defeat him with a form but is anyone actualy saying that? For me, forms were just an extra long combination that helped me develop the ability to flow from one attack / defense to another. Yeah, there are some pretty funky moves in some of these forms but in my opinion spending a little time on these not only helps co-ordination but also gives a better understanding of why the more functional stuff works!
Having said that, I wouldn't choose to do them again.....

[usks1]

Good topic..

I have to agree with Hock and Joe.. It is not the practice of forms that is bad, it is the practice of dangerous movements within the forms.

I can show you a ton of applications out of Kajukenbo and Kenpo forms. Most of the forms are application based, and the self defense techniques you practice on a partner are inside them. What I have personally modified is the footwork and got rid of the hand on the hip.

I am sure Mike Steele or any other well learned instructor of Okinawan Karate can show some really good Bunkai inside thier Kata.

When we do carrenza aren't we really doing forms?? It may be freestyle, but aren't you practicing your skills with movement..

Again it comes back to dangerous movements inside the form.

I don't practice or teach any old H pattern forms. I have better success teaching basics in drills and floor work. The basics come together in combat scenarios.. Then practice your combat scenarios solo in the air, and you are doing forms training.. Just functionally.

Have you ever worked a scenario in the air??? If so you just did a form.. Think about it.

This is also not new.. You see Indonesians and Filipinos, Hawaiians and others doing it all the time.

Japanese Karate has a training practice called Jiyu Kata. This is basically unscripted basics practice. The teacher does the movement and you follow.

Do siniwali drills or sumbrada and what is that... Basically a 2 man set..

Again it is not the practice that is bad... Just make sure what you practice is safe and leads to higher skill development.

Keep up the hard training.

Dean.

[plouffeka]

I'm sure I'm not alone in my experience of drifting in and out of various martial arts before getting my black belt.  So I did a lot of different kata's.  For me personally, I don't feel they really helped one bit (and in the last system I was in, my instructor taught the applications inside the kata's, so I know they are not dances).

But I guess I don't learn to good that way.  I got better training and better repetition training through floor drills (walking the length of the floor kicking punching over and over, or with a partner blocking their punches and kicks), drills like block-pass-pin-strike, cardio bag workouts - in short drills in which the delivery you react to is ever changing, or you are in front of someone or smacking something (or all 3).

I like the SFC progression of practicing in the air, hitting something hard, partner drills, and then combat scenarios.  I can understand that.  Kata's to me stop at the practice in the air level, which seems the one you should spend the least amount of time doing, it takes up practice time by having you do set moves outside the unpredictable flow of combat.

Are they valid or not?  What do I know?  Only that as a teaching tool, they didn't work for me and in my opinion they leave a lot to be desired, especially considering how much time and effort is put into them.  They are pretty cool at competitions when set to matching music, however, I'm not all that graceful, so there you go.

Keith

[misshinryu]

KATA

The kata of Isshinryu karate-do is a combination of various self-defence moves set in a sequence. Each kata teaches us its own strategy for defensive tactics.
Seisan kata is IR first and among the many combat concepts that it teaches us is using a front forward stance while fighting multiple opponents coming from different directions.
Seiuchin kata is about fighting bigger opponents in which we grab and pull them into us while we attack. (Like Jesse)
and so on.

At one time I had a sensei who did not understand kata bunkai. (analysis of movement in the form). His focus was on sport karate.
Another person on this list that I have spoken to about karate and his view that it is not street effective said that he used to train in the style that I train in. I asked him if his teacher focused on sport or self-defence and he said sport, big time!
Sport karate has really been a detrimate to real karate. It is nothing but a form of kick boxing which in itself is sport.
Tae kwan do is nothing but sport in which there are some schools that still teach the forms that have no combat purpose but they do it for rank qualifications. TKD has its roots in old shotokan karate which was the Okinawan karate adapted for Japanese school children. So much of the martial (military) art has been watered down and this is what much of TKD is all about.
Sorry to digress.
If you are a student of the martial arts in which kata is taught without the bunkai, run don't walk to a school that does teach the combat application of the kata.
My Isshinryu sensei by the name of A.J. Advincula teaches us that our karate must work as if you are in a foxhole overrun with the enemy and you have no other weapons besides your whole body. "Block em and clock em." Preassure points? Center of mass!
Combat tested stuff.
So, kata is a good thing if you know what you are doing. Reminds me what Hock asked him about all the knife movements that looked "phooey"(?) Hock said that it looks screwy to the person who does not know what the moves mean.
Too, many people are criticizing things that they do not know enough about. That is another problem for another discussion.
Mike

..........
BUNKAI

Bunkai is the application, use or meaning of a technique. After
learning a kata the student must learn the bunkai to fully
understand the meaning behind all the techniques. Unlike Kihon
(Basics) and Kata (Form) which can be practiced by yourself, bunkai
must be practiced with several partners.

There can be several bunkais for a technique but to standardize and
prevent confusion there are basic bunkais and advanced bunkais to be
taught at different stages. The basic or first meaning usually is a
block, the second meaning may convert the block to a strike and the
advanced or third meaning may be a block-strike combination.

Most students do not spend enough time practicing bunkai because it
may not be taught or known by the instructor, it is time consuming
and the average student trains only twice a week. Bunkai is not
required in tournaments.

Karate is not complete without kata; kata is not complete without
bunkai. You must know bunkai if you are to do your kata with
sincerity. Without knowledge of bunkai you are only moving your arms
and legs and not focusing your thoughts. If you do not know the
bunkai of a certain kata you must not say "I know that kata"…you
only memorized the sequence of the steps. A student taking an exam
should be ready to explain the bunkai, otherwise he or she is not
ready to be examined (Brown and Black Belt Levels). Like the above
mentioned…when bunkai is taught, it is done through a seminar
because bunkai is very time consuming and the instructor must be
very knowledgeable and skillful in kata and bunkai. This is why
highly-skilled instructors do charge a nominal fee for learning
bunkai.

There are two levels of learning bunkai after memorizing the kata…
the defensive and offensive, which is more difficult to do. You must
know the offensive level to be able to teach bunkai. Instructors
should know the history and changes behind each bunkai because some
it has changed from the Samurai armor and weapons type of fighting
to modern times.


"Kata is the soul of Karate but Bunkai is the soul of Kata".

[Nick Hughes]

Bingo...give that man a cigar...Misshinryu is right on target..and yet there's more.  Grab a coffee and some popcorn 'cause this will be relatively long.

The way it was explained to me was that years ago the Russians developed a sports training method that we in the west now call "Imagery Rehearsal."  Imagery rehearsal is based on the premise that your sub conscious cannot differentiate between what is real and what is imagined.  Sounds crazy until you think of waking up in a cold sweat from a nightmare or jumping when a possum jumps out of the trash can late at night.

According to the study the Russians trained three groups.  One on physical training only, one on imagery rehearsal only and one on both.  The third group outperformed both of the others significantly.  Now, any good sports coach teaches this system and I've read umpteen interviews with Olympic athletes who all use this training method.

So, katas, when taught properly (and more on that in a sec) are a form of this training.  I'm supposed to visualize real opponents when I practise them (which is why it helps to have the bunkai explained) and see myself fighting them, and watch their reactions as I make contact etc.  It's one of the only training drills where I can actually "kill" someone when training and, on some occasions I'll even visualize myself "killing" all of them.

This same methodology can be used at the range.  I know people who go to the range, hang a paper target and shoot at it.  I go, hang the same target, but now visualize a terrorist/criminal/outlaw biker (take your pick) and shoot him instead.  To work, you have to close your eyes for a second (self hypnosis almost) and see your surroundings, his clothing, facial expression, weapon etc and then start firing.  The idea, and this is how it is for the athletes as well, is that when the real day occurs your subconsicous mind takes over and you react accordingly.  You don't freeze up, because your subconscious has done this thousands of time already.

So, for example, when I was in Russia on a body guard gig for six months with no one to play with, I could go practise my forms and fight people for real (according to my subconscious) every day.  The bunkai by the way isn't as predertimined as you might think...for example in a step accross backfist seen in Tekki or Nai Han Sin I've found seventeen possible applications.  Some are obvious to an untrained observer, some have to be unlocked by a competent instructor.

More to follow....

[Chris]

I would have to say that forms are detrimental if you are bound by them, however, for solo (non impact training) I think they are valid. Also, many people I train with are good practioners but if you ask them to translate one motion from stick to knife to short staff to empty hand, they can't do it. They also have difficulty translating application into form, try it, its harder than you think. A lot of people tossed out forms because of JKD, yet Bruce was an avid forms practioner according to Taky Kimura, Jesse Glover and Ed Hart anyway. I also did form after form in my early training, for my instructors this was as much a right of passage as anything else. A lot of new people to the arts that get in with the JKD, FMA etc. don't realize that back in the day you were doing a thousand cross blocks and attaining A brown belt and above (and spending a lot of$) before the instructor showed the true "secret" of the movement. I attend seminars and see green students getting for $50 in 4 hours what took me $1000's and years to get. That, I know, a lot of you can relate to.

[Nick Hughes]

Continued,

The sad part is that most people have the wrong idea about them because they've never been taught exactly what they are or what's inside.

Part of that is the fact that most martial arts were introduced to this country by servicemen returning from Okinawa and Korea.  In Europe we have a saying, someone who speaks 3 languages is tri-lingual, someone who speaks two languages is bi-lingual and someone who speaks one language is American  

So, even if the Oriental instructors had taught by explanation there was a language barrier.  To make matters worse any one who's trained under a Japanese or Okinawan instructor knows they don't teach by explanation buy by demostration.  Their belief is that the voyage of self discovery is the proper way to learn.  Unfortunately, those same military guys who came back here to teach ran into a bunch of students who, unlike their oriental counterparts, wanted to know why they were required to do certain things.  Rather than say, "I don't know" they often just made stuff up, or taught the very obvious.

As a result forms became little more than dances that one had to learn to pass their next belt level.  I've taught at karate college, started breaking forms down, and ended up with the entire college in my class.  The people who were supposed to rotate to the next class with Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis didn't go....not because they don't think those guys are any good (they're brilliant at what they do) but because they hadn't ever seen the katas taught properly and were fed up with sports applications.  (Most school owners forget that the main reason people join martial arts schools is for self defense).

I've also always been big into multiple opponents.  At my size I don't get attacked one on one much   and I've always believed that is the martial arts forte.  Whereas boxers for example train to go ten rounds with one man, I train to go one round with ten!!  Katas are one of the only training exercises we have to fight multiple opponents.  Sparring doesn't do it (unless you spar multiple opponents), bag work doesn't do it, ground fighting doesn't do it.  Only katas (and sparring multiple opponents) do it.

The reason the forms are prearranged is, as Misshinryu said, to teach you different skills.  The first kata in my Combat Karate is Nai Han Sin.  It's a form designed to teach you to fight multiple opponents with your back to the wall.  Sanchin teaches you breath control and how to fight when winded, San Sayru teaches using body weight etc.  The idea is that by the time you get through the system you've learned all these different aspects of fighting which makes you a very versatile fighter.

Once we taught someone the form then we'd go back inside and practise the individual moves against multiple adversaries, not unlike the combat scenarios that Hock teaches.

Hope that explains them a little better to some of you who may have been short changed going through your training.

PS:  This isn't a dig at instructors who didn't teach them properly.  Most of them are only passing on what they've learned, and, if they weren't taught properly to begin with...well, you can see where the problem lies.

[Hock]

Which leads me back to my original point. Almost anything is better than sitting on the couch.

To me, kata is the "Solo Command and Mastery" I teach at every level of every course. I MAKE students do solo command and mastery. I would never make a student do a kata that contained a dangerous move.So practice kata...but avoid stupid moves...I.E. extremely wide-legged stances and fists on hips...etc.

Is there a shortstop kata in baseball?  Is there a football kata? Is there a offensive end kata? Can a person run down a field and turn a button hook and pretend to catch a pass, then pretend to dodge and imagine bowling over defenders? Yes...they can play pretend that. Yes, it might be better than not play pretending that. But actually doing it is a MAJOR difference. Did I say the word major? Let me say it again in case I didn't... MAJOR!

Shooting at paper targets and catching air passes, or playing air-guitar on an imaginary rock stage, can help someone imagine a lot of stuff...the power of positive thinking and all...but other interactive training is way, WAY more vital in the learning process. We all know and agree on this.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go practice my whiskey-drinking kata. The hand and arm movment s are the same, but the damn Jack Daniels is missing!

Hock

[Professor]

  "Solo Command and Mastery"    is simply an English translation of what Kata should be...   



I'm not a kata guy, never have been....however, I need kata in many cases to refresh and refine my technique.   When you are at the next seminar or in your school during the next class.   Look around, folks are going through their own private katas (Solo Command and Mastery) working through their strikes, blocks, etc.     


My two sons (Jared - 8 - and Tristan - 6 -) have finally gotten the itch to learn martial arts......Yes, this makes a dad smile.  I've patiently waited their whole life to start lessons - believe it or not, I've never pushed them to start. 

 

What did I start them with...?......a form of a kata.....1 blocking kata and one weapons kata.  I'm starting this way to save myself as much as teach them.  It keeps them both busy and let's me teach them the basics.   They are now using the blocking katas to defend against attacks and are using an old bokken that has been chopped down to learn an eight angle of attack drill.  Kata provides them an opportunity to improve their techniques without me teaching them.   For Jared, kata is an excellent teaching tool....it fits him.   Tristan, on the other hand, will never do it...he needs the interaction.


Teach with a full toolbox of teaching materials.  Don't teach with only the tools that you like.   Kata is a wonderful tool if taught correctly and applied in an appropriate manner.

[mleone]

Train with adrenaline is what I say. The kata is a wonderfull prerequisite and its better than being on the couch!

The mind understands adrenaline. Training kata has focus, but could some one have focus when a Madman with a pick axe handle is attacking them? Yes they could I suppose. But being in an adreanline mode can have good usage. Training the techniqes and scenario formulas have value. Combat ultimately is change. We roll with it correct? Kata is great and I dont knock it! It is solo command and mastery like hock said I agree.I would do form for a nice warm up or cool down. I speak for myself in this. I have been doing Tai chi form for years.
It is a form in essence and rarely will any Tai Chi school teach application in it. Matter of fact its taught more for self benefits these days more than anything. This is in regards to my neighborhood.

When I saught application my thinking changed from pointless to usefullness.
To the form guys keep doing it! But do at some point go a bit a way from it! Dont lock your thinking into form as the end of all end! There is so much out there that has awesome value just as well as the form!