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[Damien W]

Hi Guys,

Kata teaches you nothing………..(wait for it)………..that you should not have learned already.

Kata is a geometric configuration…(manuiplated by many over the years, I’ll come to that later) made up from composites, the composite (or principle of a particular encounter) is derived from a scenario or experience of two person training where one person has attacked from a list of common but habitual attacks and the other has defended.

When you remove one of the training partners, remaining is a solo re-enactment of that defence…put these solo re-enactments together in a configuration and you’ve got Kata.

This is why one sees similar movements in various Katas and sometimes-identical movements. Therefore Kata is a mnemonic tool and provides the facility to transport techniques and defence principles.

Kata has been manipulated and standardised by various organisations and individuals where they now bear only a slight resemblance to the original form, we will never know what the original creator intended with his specific Kata, because he is long since gone.
The best we can do is to find the oldest known version from the same lineage and reverse engineer.

Karate has never been tested on the 'battle field', therefore remains a civil defence method.

Any imagery of the peasent training through the night to battle the Samurai is 'bunk'...
[Peasent, working hard all day living of a few bowl of rice, but having to ability to create a unarmed system which could defeat trained warriors 'samurai' mercenaries some on horse back with 4 and 5 foot razor sharp swords in full body armour....man it didn't happen ]

[Kentbob]

It is my opinion that kata should be used more for self-perfection, than self-preservation.   I probably don't need to expand, but I will anyway.  Self-perfection, as in breathing, timing, balance, coordination, focus, so on and so forth.  My aikido instructor would try and teach us a kata, of sorts. We simply referred to it as the walk, and it basically contains all the footwork that you would use in every application of aikido, as well as the hand movements.  Its good, but I had a little trouble with it.  Then, my instructor would make me do it slowly, to emphasize the points that I was  missing, mostly balance, and concentration.  This is where I believe the true value of kata come in.  I was at a Tae Kwan Do tournament a while ago, and I witnessed the forms competition.  No doubt, there focus, timing, etc.  was all a lot better than mine was or is, but as near as I could tell, the techniques they were presenting were merely for show, and not for fighting off their worst case scenario.  Of course, that seems to be Tae Kwon Do in a nutshell, but I digress.  I personally like traditional forms and kata, because they give me something to practice when I can't find a traning partner.  And, if I use my imagination a little, I can picture my own worst case scenario, and try to react and respond accordingly in the air.  And, as many people have already said, this is merely a different type of form, or kata.  But the traditional kata, again, focus more on the self-preservation side, and the things I do for cqc/jkd/kali kata and forms, they focus on my self-preservation.

[misshinryu]

“I soon found that the different Okinawan approach to training still produced a very strong, skilled fighter and in fact found that the Okinawans were faster and more effective in kumite than the Shotokan people. I could not understand at first how they could be so effective, when they did not train as hard as the Japanese. After some time I found the secret, kata, and when they fight they use kata principles. In Shotokan we trained in kata but fought as if we were in a kendo match. The Okinawans were more fluid and move with greater spontaneity” Dan Smith
from an interview with him in Classical Fighting Arts Magazine

[Bri Thai]

Kata and Forms.......are they where you do an unrealistic technique in an unrealistic way into thin air against a non existent attacker in a lengthy, predetermind pattern where "secret" moves are "hidden" away as blocks are actually poor defences against wrist locks and you hit "Gall Bladder point 3" on someones flippin forearm and the worlds best fighters get by just fine without using them?

Just asking.

[Nick Hughes]

"and the worlds best fighters get by just fine without using them?"

What world's best fighters would these be?  You can only be referring to a sporting environement because they're the only people putting on "World Championships"

The breakdowns of the forms I teach have nothing to do with blocks or hitting pressure points.  I've had articles published in Europe in "Fighting Arts International" where I've gone on the record saying a) there is no such things as blocks in Karate and b) pressure points don't work.

Go back to my post and read again about the training technique called "imagery rehearsal" which is used by almost every top class athlete in the world today.

I've also fought multiple opponents many times and attribute my ability to do so, and prevail, to training kata.  The kick boxers and tournament fighers are training to fight one person at a time, and, if that were my goal, I probably wouldn't do them either.

Here's something else to consider...you can speak English quite well without ever studying poetry or Shakespeare.  Should we drop Shakespeare and Poetry from the curriculum?  I can also teach someone to speak English without teaching them to read or write.  Should we drop those from the curriculum also?

N

[mleone]

Forms have made a xyz sequential mentality. However for the novices its perfect.
Like hock says I dont have time to worry about pressure point L5. I just want to beat the snot out of his arm.
THey have use but when you graduate from them you have a choice to let them hinder you or learn the application and move on. It depends on the focus on the kata do you focus on application or dont you!

[lakerssportsfan]

I think training time can be better spent practicing on striking pads or heavy bags or even freeflowing shadow boxing.

Just about any form I have seen has nothing to do with modern life. When are you going to C-step in and reverse punch someone?

I dont know of any modern RBSD people who take forms or katas seriously.

I think some people spent so much time doing katas that they have trouble admitting that it has nothing to do with their fighting effectiveness.

[misshinryu]

Preassure points?
Hell the whole body is a preassure point and when you hit it hard enough somethings bound to happen.
This is coming from a very traditional Okinawan karate guy who until a few years ago loved to brawl and practiced kata because thats what we were supposed to do.
Now I see things much differently so I will be patient with those who are sport karate or kick boxers because at one time I did not know.

Forms have made a xyz sequential mentality. However for the novices its perfect.
Like hock says I dont have time to worry about pressure point L5. I just want to beat the snot out of his arm.

Fine, you beat the snot out of his arm and I will hit him center of mass.

[mleone]

When you train too much like a martial artist you learn to defend against only martial arts.
The sociopath in the street does not attack with a round house kick! He is more like the tazmanian devil. Purchase the movie ultimate street brawls and look at the fights. DO THE RESEARCH DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT!
Form has its use Ill admit that. But training it too much of it with out application can send a novice fighter to his grave.

Can you defend a back kick? Yes?
Can you defend a spinning a lunge punch? Yes?
Can you defend a crescent kick? Yes?
 
Defend against a madman with an ice pick using form? NO
It has its use and place. Use it wisely! Spending too much time on it can seal a fighters fate.
There are martial artists who train 20 years of form and claim to hold blackbelts and get beat down in the street. Why because they were not trained to handle the emotional levels and psychological levels. Though it has nothing to do with form. That is another story.
20 Years, yes 20 years of the same amount of form. 20 Years with the same curriculum.
Each fighter has his own path, no system will save your life only you will save your life!
We are responsible for our training and survival. Amen
 

[misshinryu]

You know, you are right.
The way I learned kata and teach kata is with application and we take the techniques from the whole and practice these moves over and over with variations. Kata kumite is what it is called.
The emotional aspect is important as well. We need to tap into our fears and turn them into controled rage against our attacker.
I have the video Ultimate Street Brawls and...?

"Defend against a madman with an ice pick using form? NO"

Listen guys for the last time, we practice kata not to look pretty, or win trophys but to practice SELF-DEFENSE skills. No one that I associate with expects the attacker to follow a script so I can follow a form. However, I have spoken to many of you who believe that and I am saying you were taught be someone who does not know their karate.
Why the angry face?
 

[mleone]

Angry face was indeed a mistake sorry! Hit the wrong button.

Ultmate street brawls in reference to that you dont see some one responding in a form style. If they do its bypassed by the reactive brain or the flinch.

Im not trying to debase your feelings misshinryu what so ever. Form works for you and training it is usefull. If you enjoy it even more do so. We are all on the same team in hocks forum.
I respect your feelings thoughts and I indeed know where you are coming from.
We are all after the same thing to defend ourselves.

I understand there is alot of Pejorative competeness and ego out there.
But I remain objectve and value your thoughts misshinryu.


Mario

[misshinryu]

It is apparent to me that there might be a misunderstanding about kata. This is what I have maintained all through this discussion.
It hard to communicate this on the web. In my opinion you aint getting it. I do not mean that in a mean way at all but only by what I read of these post. And maybe I am not communicating well.
Sometimes that happens.
Have a great weekend!

[Professor]

It is apparent to me that there might be a misunderstanding about kata. This is what I have maintained all through this discussion.
It hard to communicate this on the web. In my opinion you aint getting it. I do not mean that in a mean way at all but only by what I read of these post. And maybe I am not communicating well.
Sometimes that happens.
Have a great weekend!

This is a rough crowd for kata guys.....   

I'll give you a hug and a kiss when I see you next to make up for all of the negative vibes from the unwashed masses of fighters.  I apologize for all of us.

Keep preaching, You're right.      Kata is practice -- practice should perfect -- .


 

[misshinryu]

This is a rough crowd for kata guys.....

I'll give you a hug and a kiss when I see you next to make up for all of the negative vibes from the unwashed masses of fighters. I apologize for all of us.

Keep preaching, You're right. Kata is practice -- practice should perfect -- .

Thanks! I feel so much better now.
 

[szorn]

These are good and valid points but my original question still remains-for what purpose should we practice forms? To master physical movements? We can do this in drills and scenarios under the stress of chaotic attacks. To master tactics against multiple attackers? Again, can be mastered through drills and scenarios with live multiple partners. As has been pointed out, most traditional katas emphasize traditional stances, traditional punching techniques, traditional chambering movements, traditional footwork patterns, etc. etc., most of which have little value under life-or-death conditions. As Hocks like to point out, we should first emphasize fighting tactics that can be used in the real world and then later worry about practicing a system. That is if our primary goal is survival. However, if our primary goal is aesthetic perfection of the martial arts then that would be a different story.

In short, if I have a student who can only devote 30 minutes three times each week to training I wouldn't include kata as a necessary training tool.

Lasty, as to the mention of visual imagery, this has been around a very long time. Likely, as long as katas have been around.  It was being highly promoted in various health related circles as far back as the 1920's and even more so in the 50's and 60's, here in the US which invalidates the reference to the Russians actually developing the techniques. It is taught in police circles and in the SFC as "Crisis Rehearsal" and can be extremely valuable even without the use of katas.


Steve