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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • February 07, 2012, 03:39:06 AM
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Author Topic: Forms...valid or not?  (Read 4836 times)

whitewolf

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2010, 08:42:13 AM »

Webb=agree=also guys one time I observed a teacher having the class (karate)  do forms BUT he had a opponent face the student and as they did the complete  form the attacker did attacks that corresponded to the movement being executed- and as he moved to the movement so did the attacker-that put a new perspective on the kata for sure-the student actually saw what he was attacking/blocking/moving to or from.
I have not seen that type training at all any more...Are some doing it?
I know other styles are.

WW (ELB) Speed of light
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Kentbob

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2010, 09:43:03 AM »

The people who are world class "forms champions" rarely train their forms to counter an attack.  In fact, as I understand it, they may even invent a kata, rather like the floor routine that gymnasts do, as opposed to a traditional kata with bunkai.  In that context, forms will not help.

As we've said in many other areas, a form/kata is not the magic bullet in the self-defense world.  It is only a tool for training.  Sticks, knives, guns, punches, kicks, these things are merely tools as well.  It is in the application where the effect is seen, not in merely having a punch or a stick.


Kent
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JimH

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2010, 10:06:56 AM »

Forms or Kata ,as applied to Karate type arts,is just an exercise.
It gets the body moving through a predetermined pattern of movement,or free form movement,in oredr to allow coordinated movement with punches,blocks,strikes and kicks.
It is not anything but exercise,like Tae Bo,Tai chi and other exercises based around movement and strikes.

To fight,one must engage in fighting,period.
One cannot learn fighting from Kata alone ,from videos alone or from day dreaming,one must get their butts on the mat and go at it against another person.
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whitewolf

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2010, 02:52:52 PM »

Every one should read Mleones post from  back in nov 23 2004-it cant be said any better than that---i am glad  i went back and saw that one-WW (ELB) Speed of light
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2010, 01:38:02 AM »

Solution:

1) Practice combat scenarios (elements that would actually use in a fight) solo command & mastery
2) Practice those same movements on training equipment- stand alone equipment such as heavy bag or wooden dummy & with a training partner holding focus mitts, kick shields.
3) Practice those same movements with partners, but unlock the scenario to find related drills that isolate and support different portions of the CS.
4) Practice those same movements against a static to fully resisting opponent (who is padded up) in Force on Force scenarios.

This is months of work that most people are not prepared to do, but this is what it takes.

Joe


PS  These are not my ideas, they are Hock's and have been a part of the SFC ethos since the beginning.  It's a simple formula, but not too simple!
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Webby

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2010, 02:59:17 AM »

Joe,
      The Kimber Johnson story is a testament to this. She says that all her training in form's was useless in a real world attack and despite her fitness and athletic ability she was brutally raped. Despite the horrendous nature of the crime it is a good ( but hard learned ) lesson to teach to women on future courses.

I've always thought that if it looks spectacular it's not going to work !

LOL

Webby...     
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2010, 05:45:39 AM »

Joe,
      The Kimber Johnson story is a testament to this. She says that all her training in form's was useless in a real world attack and despite her fitness and athletic ability she was brutally raped. Despite the horrendous nature of the crime it is a good ( but hard learned ) lesson to teach to women on future courses.

I've always thought that if it looks spectacular it's not going to work !

LOL

Webby...  

I hear ya'!  I've never once stated that I support traditional martial arts katas or forms.  With that in mind, you should still practice "what you will actually use in a fight" in the air as part of your training format to be complete.  You must also practice drills and hit things.  Force on Force scenarios is part of it as well, but too much banging will burn you out- it's all about balance and not being one-sided.


Joe    
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 05:54:19 AM by Joe Hubbard »
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2010, 06:08:27 AM »

Another slant on this topic is the very crowd that say never practice any forms in the air will then turn around and "shadow box" when warming up.  Now, I'm not talking about boxers but the Reality/Protection/Defence mob.  This is truly an enigma- these are the guys that say boxing doesn't work, but they shadow box to warm up.  At many seminars that I have taught I have instructed the crowd to warm up with Shadow Fighting.  Everyone always then proceeds to Shadow Box.  When I then demonstrate simulating a scenario in the air including how they got attacked, preemptive situations, entering into close quarter range, executing takedowns, including being taken down to the ground and getting back to their feet and escaping, most people cannot do it- at all!  This is definitely something that needs to be reprogrammed in most.

Joe
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 06:13:51 AM by Joe Hubbard »
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JimH

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2010, 06:15:19 AM »

Train forms do kata as an addition to self defense training,but do not think that forms / kata alone will allow you to defend yourself.
Throwing punches,edge of hand,kicks and elbows in the air are NOT like striking a person.

The reality is that MANY who train in various arts and do Kata and sparring still get their butts handed to them on the street,(men and women).

Why would that be ?
Because they train sparring as a sport,train to exchange and get points.
They wear so much gear ,they never hit or get hit and when they get hit ONE TIME with a good shot they crumble.
When they hit without their hand,  shin or foot protection they feel the impact,feel pain and stop the attack.

I know at least a dozen 3rd degree and higher Black Belts who have had their butts kicked in one on one street ,subway attacks.

We read THE FEW stories that make the news of a Martial Artist who has used their training and survived an attack.
Yet we DO NOT hear of all the Martial Artists who get their butts kicked as that part of the loser's story the Martal Arts are never/rarely mentioned.

Forms and Kata,like shadow boxing ,are drills / exercises, to help performance but it is not a substitute for Contact training,if self protection is the primary or secondary goal.
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whitewolf

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2010, 08:02:47 AM »

Joe-i agree specially about falling and getting back up-the students for the most part have to be shown how to get back up and go into a defense or offensive posture-i have initiated this practise in every class as i saw that it was not being taught-WW (ELB)
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Crafty

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2010, 08:35:25 AM »

« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 08:37:07 AM by Crafty »
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Joe Hubbard

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whitewolf

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2010, 06:25:53 AM »

Crafty - i  looked at the info and it is interesting- did u  n otice what it said about animals?
also the mention of resistance traiing makes sense to me.
I am trying something new.
After working out in the gym by what ever i do that time I hook up a very strong rubber
stretching band and put it around my waist-and then either shadow box, run  in place,  or do throw movements leaning against the band for resistance- tires me out-works pretty good- (IMHO)
I am going to have the students take turns with the band as another student is in front of them and throws punches (both will have gloves on ) dont need any injuries in class..
that should add some resistance to the training. Might try actual defensive tacics also.
WW (ELB) Speed of light

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Crafty

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2010, 03:45:13 PM »

I train form and focus on increasing my reps apply technique build stamina thats some of the things i learnt from my trip to the philliphines just got to get rid of my fat belly must be my age sounds good whitewolf  ;)
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whitewolf

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Re: Forms...valid or not?
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2010, 04:33:57 PM »

Crafty-if u would like some work out exersises e  mail me- =whitewolfmc9999@yahoo.com
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