Hock's Blog

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page



Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

New Links

Knife Book

Impact Weapons Book

First Contact

Critical Contact

Footwork Book

Facebook-CQC

Facebook-Hock

Hock's Author Pg

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • February 08, 2012, 04:34:15 PM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4

Author Topic: Apache Knife Fighting Details  (Read 21968 times)

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7756
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2009, 10:36:02 AM »

Probably marketing hoopla.

But, think of all the small, regional boxing, MMA and UFC-style tournaments whose winners are officially called "World Champion." I don't exactly know what qualifies for that title.

Maybe the sponsering association has worldwide membership? Sort of the like the little podunk airport that has one flight to Jamica and then can call itself an "international" aiport.

I am sure now though that any new jake-leg group these days wouldn't even adhear to a world standard rule and call themselves any old damn thing they want.

Hock

Kaliman33

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 131
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2009, 12:15:37 PM »

We need to start promoting the PAC camp for June, i have recieved a call or 2, and have been telling my students to clear thier schedule and i will send out the flyer to all of the people on my mailing lists, I think this will be a great camp

Marc
Logged

D. McLemore

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2009, 06:32:54 PM »

  Hoch & Snake:

 Normally I would not say anything openly about this but, maybe it needs to be said.  First I don't have a lot of use for these scientific analysis martial arts programs like the one on Spike T.V. that addressed the silly supposition of comparing tactics and techniques of the Apache to those of the arena of Rome.  Geez.....I ran across this the other night, late and got excited at first. When it was all said and done what you had was a lot of testing/mesurements, chopping up fiber/cellouse dummies and all that. The comparison of weapons was all over the board ranging from bows to knives and a hell of a lot of 'one liners' getting swapped between the gladiators and the apache teams as to who was the best.  I'm usually very tolerant of any form of entertainment but the 'bottom-line' is that this program was not very well put together. The idea of comparing Gladiators who fought a blood sport to the tactical efficiency of Apache warfare just does not fit and reallly was not a good comparison. I would have preferred to have compared warriors from a closer time frame let's maybe Apache vs. Texas Rangers or even Mexican Army.  So there is the negative aspect.

On the positiive side:  I've been researching  Gladitorial combat for over 5 years now and even have an unfinished manuscript on the subject. All that said the GLaditorial team did a good job demonstrating the some of the unique weapons.  I was particularly impressed with the Sica and Scissors weapons.  They looked in great shape and knew their trade.  I would have liked to have seen them compared to thier likely opponent, the Roman Army (Remember Sparticus) .  More emphasis needed to  have been stress on the different types of Gladitors and how they were pair with specific opponents such as the Secutor vs. Retiarius or Murilllo vs. Tharex.

Snake and his associate (sorry I can't remember his name)  made the best of the presentations and demonstrations.  Now I know why Hoch speaks so highly of you Snake. I did not sees any questionable techniques on their part.  I would have liked to have seen more attention and credit given to the Apache's use of stealth and ambush techniques.  They should have expanded on the fact that the Apaches was mounted and probably the finest light calvery in the world.  Again the 'worlds' of the two warriors just did not match up very well in terms of determine what 'deadlist' meant.
The Apache relied on firearms too and that should have also been added to the equation.

 The Chuck Lidell sequences were fun and interesting.  Message:  Don't get hit by him.

 I hope I've not been too critical, for I know how difficult making the videos are .  I just wish the scientific and entertainment business would take a bit more time in editing and putting these things together.   

  Snake:  If you pop-in here drop me a line at d-mclemore@worldnet.att.net....I need to talk some indian stuff for my last tomahawk book.  Again, great to see your face and watch you work.

All My Best
Dwight.
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7756
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2009, 08:28:16 PM »

I've finally watched the first half of the show.
Its obviously highly over-staged with over-stated lines.

(Guerilla warfare introduced to the Americans by the...Apache? How's about all those New England Indians? Precursor for the special forces?)

And Snake is a really, really super nice guy and would NEVER say those challenging and competitive remarks as spoken in that show. Obviously forced upon all by the producers to create tension and competition.

I am also not a fan of these science-fight shows either.
But, Alas...its just for fun in the end.

Hock


Bryan

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 592
    • Bullshito
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2009, 02:16:25 AM »

  I saw the first couple segments and two things stood out. The first being the effectiveness of the tomahawk. The second was the use of multiple knives as presented.



  I was not surprised at all with damage done when Snake struck the stationary skull with the Tomahawk. It was devastating to say the least but what was interesting was it seemed Snake himself was surprised at the damage. This could come down to editing or something but I found it interesting, curious. If Snake would have stayed with the Tomahawk and focused on that, it would have kept my attention. I'm also very interested in Native war clubs and things too.

  The second thing that stands out is the claim that Native Americans would carry multiple blade weapons and tend to throw them and use them in similar fashion as advocated by Sayoc Kali. I am no fan of Sayoc and believe they lost the plot in modern training crossing from training based on facts into training based on comic book illustrators personal fantasies of what knife combat should look like. 

  I have personally viewed hundreds and hundreds of pictures of Native Americans. I have been all over the west, been to countless museums and even spent time at the Smithsonian Institute, University of Oklahoma, and other libraries looking at Native Artifacts. I have never seen one picture of any Indian with multiple knives much less found any evidence that any Indian Apache or otherwise would carry multiple knives. Certainly there could be a argument made that one would carry a large and small knife but that's where it ends.

  When I first came across references to Apache Knife Fighting a few years back all kinds of red flags went off. Later when I found the leader of the organization was from my home state of Arkansas I decided to look into the subject in depth. My conclusion was it was one guys money maker and there was no historical evidence to back up any of his teachings. Later he would be imprisoned there was then criminal evidence against the man but most already know that story.

  I would like to point out a few things here, The first being that steel knives were a western deal. All steel knives used by Indians were obtained outside of their population and were made by others. Native Americans never had any history of smelting steel for weapons and even today outside of a few farriers they have no representation in knife making or manufacture.

  Apache were a product of their environment. They were hard and tuff from living outdoors year around, it does not make any sense for them to carry more than one or two stone knives as they could make more if needed and steel knives were a great expense.

Then there are traveling and safety issues that make such ideas highly improbable. While on active duty I was known to carry all kinds of extra junk around but later when I went backpacking for a entire year, I learned the value of weight. I cannot imagine any right minded person ever needing or wanting to carry more than two knives. Two guns? That is a separate matter because of ammo issues.


  If anyone can come up with anything as evidence to show that Apache Knife Fighting as currently instructed is anything other than a made up story I would like to see it. I would also like to see the pictures of any Native American wearing the Sayoc Rig either afoot or on horseback.







  According to Snakes Bio, a very extensive one written by him and posted on his website he was instructed by Robert Redfeather and Certified as a Apache Knife Fighting Instructor by Robert Redfeather.

http://www.blockersavateclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=32

Certified Basic Instructor - Apache Knife Survival/Fighter
received the rank and the Apache name, "Kicking Dog," from Robert Redfeather, Ghost Dog Apache Knife Founder



 

 

Bryan

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 592
    • Bullshito
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2009, 02:46:18 AM »


Where are all the knives?






Apache chief Geronimo (right) and his warriors in 1886







Geronimo, 101 Ranch 1905, (Geronimo is the driver)

D. McLemore

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2009, 06:02:47 AM »

The second thing that stands out is the claim that Native Americans would carry multiple blade weapons and tend to throw them and use them in similar fashion as advocated by Sayoc Kali. I am no fan of Sayoc and believe they lost the plot in modern training crossing from training based on facts into training based on comic book illustrators personal fantasies of what knife combat should look like.

Hey Bryan. Here are some of my thoughts on your comments, not a challange just another point of view. 

 I agree about the plot getting lost in modern training....we are all guilty of this.  I used to think like this till I really got into reading some of the 1st person accounts from the period (18th/19th Century)  Actually the East Coast indians threw-the-hell out of the tomahawk, accessed the knife for close range. I've got about 10 accounts that talk about this several from the Library of Congress site called American Memory...there are more out there.  Comic book training?  That is not really fair, staged sequences is probably more appropriate choice of words.

 The use of tomahawk and knife together is and probably will always be historically questionable.  I've trained at it and included it if only to provide training options rather than a historical fact in my first book.  Since then I've actually read an account that talks about a farmer getting struck in the head then stabbed in the abdomen with the knife which alludes to maybe he had the hawk in one hand and the knife in the other. I long since stopped trying to replicate 'historical techniques' but rather experiment with what works whether it is  Kung Fu, Kempo, or whatever.  Use history rather than replicate it is the approach I think.

 I have personally viewed hundreds and hundreds of pictures of Native Americans. I have been all over the west, been to countless museums and even spent time at the Smithsonian Institute, University of Oklahoma, and other libraries looking at Native Artifacts. I have never seen one picture of any Indian with multiple knives much less found any evidence that any Indian Apache or otherwise would carry multiple knives. Certainly there could be a argument made that one would carry a large and small knife but that's where it ends.

   Been there, seen it, got that T-Shirt too.   From what I've researched of the East Coast indians and this IS in written word from a lot of historians much, much more knowledgable than I :  The indians of the 17th Century usually carried knife (flint or steel) warclub (was definitely a part of their warrior culture at this time) Spear, or bow.
 Now, 18th/19th century you see the spear replaced with the rifle and the associated small patch knife being included.  Possibles bag, powder horn, and associated items need to make & service the weapon.

  What you say about the far west may be true, but I suspect the Apache carried whatever he could.  As to that first picture of Geronimo and his boys, I bet everone has a knife and probably an pistol at their back.  They may have been on the reservation for this obviously staged photo.  It's been a long time but I think I saw Geronimo's knife at the museum at Fort Sill.

Apache were a product of their environment. They were hard and tuff from living outdoors year around, it does not make any sense for them to carry more than one or two stone knives as they could make more if needed and steel knives were a great expense.

    Not in the 19th Century or for that matter in the 18th either.  While there were very few native american smiths, by that time getting their hands of metal weapons was almost a cottege industry within itself.

If anyone can come up with anything as evidence to show that Apache Knife Fighting as currently instructed is anything other than a made up story I would like to see it. I would also like to see the pictures of any Native American wearing the Sayoc Rig either afoot or on horseback.

       I think what bothers you is someone calling it Apache Knife Fighting .  One just needs to do a little research to get an ideas how these "word of mouth" cultures fought.  Pete Kautz researched the WPA project that interviewed a lot of people from the West who were alive in the 19th Century,  these paint a picture of a natural type of movement style that was not necessaily defined by a specific fighting system. Dr. Wayne Van Horne's work on the warclub (you need to get his thesis) talks about the wardance and certain tag games being a basis from an indigenious fighting method that may have animal movement influences. (again East Coast Indians). 

  When it's all said and done, I don't mind someone calling it anything they want to, whether it is for marketing or whatever.  I can learn from it.  A little Kali does not hurt anyone.

  Well, good luck with your research if you run across anything of interest drop me a line.

All My Best
Dwight

Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7756
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2009, 07:58:06 AM »

Agree with all above.
(by the way, that listed webpage is just a page for the Blocker Savate club url - he has another WAY bigger page, a tad ignored while being overseas)

Just for the record...Snake is a full-blooded Apache. (I even know his parents) His learned a lot from his family and their friends growing up. What exactly I do not know.
Snake is Level 4 of my 10 Hand, Stick, Knife, Gun CQC Group instructor with me after 12 years or work.

Snake actually kicked off his own little Apache knife fighting course before the Redfeather one. But Snake joined the Navy after 9/11 and did two tours overseas and is leaving for yet another tour, upsetting his martial arts business plans. His military trainer creds are gigs he set up for folks while overseas and during his reserves meetings. He never stopped teaching and working out.

Snake went to meet and see a Redfeather deal because Snake is very good-natured and friendly and open (like a very religious person if you will) and I know would never say anything bad about anyone. (I know those TV lines were forced on him!). I do know, he learned very little if anything from Redfeather.

I know a lot of gun people and other so-called "CQC /CQB" guys in the last few years who wanted to round out their resume with "paper" on knife fighting. They went to Redfeather's Apache Knife Course before he went to jail. It was a quickie instructorship. This way a bunch of hand,-stick-knife-gun wannabes could get a real quickie knife instructorship paper in a day or two seminar.

They can't go to me because  my basic instructorship takes 3 to 6 months. It wouldn't be fast and easy. (for the record, it was $190 for years and now costs $250) They couldn't go to Snake either because he demands more time-in-grade than a day or a weekend. Of course, the aformentioned Sayocs wanted a pint of blood, a tattoo, some 1-3 years and $5,000 for a basic instructorship:odd people and curious people went to them at first, and then their business plan was apparently ...suicidal.

Other than that I know very little about American Indian Knife Fighting. They were hunters so they needed sharp stuff to hunt with. Fighting, like games, were passed on generation to generation. The rest, as they say...is history.

Hock
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 01:13:52 PM by Hock »
Logged

Canuk

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 766
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2009, 04:16:24 PM »

I watched the show, I think i would like SB if i met him. The other guy seemed...odd, seemed very surprised when his Tomahawks and arrows hit the tagets. Did anyone else notice this?
Logged

Bryan

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 592
    • Bullshito
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2009, 12:25:35 AM »



 I need to clarify a few things, I am a big fan of Geronimo and Apaches. I am both Choctaw and Cherokee with my great grandmother born on a reservation in Oklahoma where Grand Lake is now. As a kid I was always the Indian and when in Oklahoma I'm Brown enough to be treated as a second class citizen but not Indian enough to have a Card.

  Certainly any Apache family would be having their kids mess around with knives and great skills may or may not come from such things. This in no way says that Apaches or any tribe would a have a similar system of training that is basic FMA with new names. That is my point of contention, FMA and Systems are for city folk, that simple. Any kid that grew up like I did swinging a machete, axes, hatchets, and using knives in the woods will have skills with such tools that can never be taught, Its learned by doing.

  If that's how Snake learned, by doing, good for him and if he wants to call it Apache Knife I have no issue with that. The whole Robert Redfeather Apache Knife thing is a separate matter and a story he made up as far as I can tell. This is one of the problems of selling knives and knife training, most of the potential customers are completely ignorant on both sides of the subject. When you mix in Movie people it even gets worse, there is big money to be made and story tellers themselves giving a ear to anyone who can tell tall tales that film nice.

  Absolutely Geronimo not only had one knife, he had many. Problem is, as far as I can tell he only carried one at a time and all the evidence I can find shows Natives with one big knife, them also packing a smaller knife is pure speculation my part. If anyone can point me towards books or pictures that have Natives packing a half dozen knives outside of a Wild West Show, please do so, I would like to know about it.

  Geronimo is said to have been given many knives as presents and there are claims he also gave away many knives. This story seems to make since but I have not found any information yet that I can confirm. I have seen a few pictures and even a sketch said to be knives owned by Geronimo and I will start gather information on this. The main knife I saw attributed to Geronimo looked to be a guardless trade knife, large and typical in the style of a Original Bowie or Butcher knife. It was nothing fancy but a great user and I suspect that's the kind of knife he would have.

D. McLemore

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2009, 08:08:22 AM »

Bryan:

   I can't talk to you with any degree of intelligence about Gerinomo and Apaches.  Just have not got around to the far West and besides 'God & Everyone' these days are becoming experts on this subject ( Also like Gladiators)  and when I see this happening, I go study something else.  Sort of like Bowie Knife Instructors & Tomahawk Instructors, again 'everyone is an expert'

I need to clarify a few things, I am a big fan of Geronimo and Apaches. I am both Choctaw and Cherokee with my great grandmother born on a reservation in Oklahoma where Grand Lake is now. As a kid I was always the Indian and when in Oklahoma I'm Brown enough to be treated as a second class citizen but not Indian enough to have a Card.
 
     My family tree was Scot/Irish immigrants, poor as dirt and I still am proud of them.  You have a rich cultural heritage that no bias of any man can take away from you. Your insights should make you the better man.

That is my point of contention, FMA and Systems are for city folk, that simple. Any kid that grew up like I did swinging a machete, axes, hatchets, and using knives in the woods will have skills with such tools that can never be taught, Its learned by doing.
 
    I'm sure this is not the case with you, but I've seen this argument used as a cop-out for not training.  I grew up in a small town in Louisiana and spent every summer  on my grandfather's farm in the hills of Tennessee.  I did this too,(probably too much)  and the shortfall was that no matter the lessons learned in that environment, there WAS NO learning structure nor requirement to have any but cut/stack brush.  Any modern person  who has ever cut and stacked tobbaco in a a barn will probably tell you that other than making one strong there was no martial lesson there other than I never wanted to do that 'shit' ever again. 

 'City Folk' ?   What is that supposed to mean.  FMA certainly originated in rural villages and parallels can be found as far back as medieval an rennaissance Europe. 

This is one of the problems of selling knives and knife training, most of the potential customers are completely ignorant on both sides of the subject. When you mix in Movie people it even gets worse, there is big money to be made and story tellers themselves giving a ear to anyone who can tell tall tales that film nice.

    Yep, you nailed that !  I totally agree,  but have to tell you that the 'Hype' and bias will always be there and I've got to the point where I've learned to accept it as just the 'Nature of the Beast'  and knowing the difference between these things and reality is what is important.  I have a lot of friends and associates in the stage combat arena. I've been lucky to have trained with some of those that are the best in that business.  All of them are really quite clear is that the mission of movies is 1st to entertain, and 2nd create an illusion.  As you there are a lot of people that can't tell the difference between Arts and Reality. When you throw in martial sports then things get real confusing for the general public.   I think your point may well be is when people film these sort of programs under the implied guize that it is 'Reality'. There is the problem I had with that t.v. program.   'Bottom line' is I think these things will get better as time progresses and people become more educated.

Geronimo is said to have been given many knives as presents and there are claims he also gave away many knives. This story seems to make since but I have not found any information yet that I can confirm. I have seen a few pictures and even a sketch said to be knives owned by Geronimo and I will start gather information on this. The main knife I saw attributed to Geronimo looked to be a guardless trade knife, large and typical in the style of a Original Bowie or Butcher knife. It was nothing fancy but a great user and I suspect that's the kind of knife he would have.

   I wish I had the presence of mind when I saw that knife in the museum to have photographed it but I was a young cadet then and more interested in jumping out of airplanes and tanks at the time.  I think your correct on him owning many knives.

Well, again another good discussion.  Good luck with your training and research.

All My Best
Dwight

Logged

Snake Blocker

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2009, 12:15:52 PM »

Alan "Colorado Warrior" Tafoya is a full blooded Jicarilla Apache.  He is a direct descentant of the famous Apache Chief, Magnus Colorado.  Colorado means "Red," and Magnus Colorado means "Red Sleaves." 

Alan's father was the Police Chief of the Jicarilla Apache Reservation for over 20yrs before he passed away in 2000.  One of Alan's uncles was also on the Police force and his other uncle (which I've met) is a Medicine Man. 

Alan Tafoya won the 1999 and 2000 Soldier of Fortune Knife Championship in Las Vegas, Nevada and he has studied martial arts and kickboxing since he was a child.  He received his first bow and arrow set when he was just 4 years old.

Alan is also an actor, musician and song writter.  He was featured in the book, "Vital Point Strikes by Sang H. Kim, Turtle Press (416 pages) which came out this year.  His girlfriend is actress, Cynthia Straus.  Alan has two beautiful daughters (both in their 20s) and one grandson.  I've met his entire family and girlfriend and they are the nicest people.  Alan has been featured in several Native films, magazines, and short films.  He just completed a role in Spec Ops which will air in July of this year on television (produced by Morining Star Entertainment). Alan's biography was featured on the film, "Dancing on the Edge," which talks of his world on the reservation and shows his victory win for the 2nd time as S.O.F. Knife Champion.  Alan and I did a 30 mins interview this week on KCIE 90.5 FM (Public Radio) in New Mexico.  Alan and I completed the 14th Annual Apache Knife Fighting & Battle Tactics seminar on the Apache Reservation last month.  He is a great friend and brother to me.  The information we teach at these seminars are based on information we receive from elders of the Apache bands...stories that were passed down from Great-great grandparents to great grandparents to grandparents, and so on.  These are stories of Apache fighting that you will not get from history books.  Many Apaches believed that having pictures taken of them took a piece of their spirit also, so few historic pictures are available.  One of the great-grandsons and great-great grandsons of Goyathlay (aka: Geronamo) lives in Colorado.  I met the great-great grandson, and he too is one of the nicest guys around.   Most of society knows very little of the Apaches, because they only know what they see on western movies or a few documentaries.  The Apache history goes so much deeper than that, and that is why 15 years ago I started researching and teaching our culture.  Those that really reasearch our culture will be facinated at what they'll find.
Logged

grlaun

  • Rawhide
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1577
  • Jeff 'Rawhide' Laun
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2009, 10:08:44 PM »

Snake was the MAN on ultimate warrior. Loved all the knives you had, slamming them on the table for effect!
Logged
Cheat in Beginning - Cheat in the Middle - Cheat in the End
Official Evil Ninja - 2008
Texas Peace Officer 8/2009
"You're making the wrong assumption that a Marine by himself is outnumbered"
Gen Peter Pace, 28Jul06

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 5307
Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2009, 11:08:01 PM »

After reading the posts i went to u tube and found a vidio of SB doing some self defense tacics-pretty interesting- i dont know the date of the vidio-there was a female with him holding weapons and the attacker/attackers had cowboy hats on-vidio was made outdoors--ww (elb)
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4