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Author Topic: Apache Knife Fighting Details  (Read 21969 times)

Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2009, 01:33:55 AM »

Alan "Colorado Warrior" Tafoya is a full blooded Jicarilla Apache.  He is a direct descentant of the famous Apache Chief, Magnus Colorado.  Colorado means "Red," and Magnus Colorado means "Red Sleaves." 

Alan's father was the Police Chief of the Jicarilla Apache Reservation for over 20yrs before he passed away in 2000.  One of Alan's uncles was also on the Police force and his other uncle (which I've met) is a Medicine Man. 

Alan Tafoya won the 1999 and 2000 Soldier of Fortune Knife Championship in Las Vegas, Nevada and he has studied martial arts and kickboxing since he was a child.  He received his first bow and arrow set when he was just 4 years old.

Alan is also an actor, musician and song writter.  He was featured in the book, "Vital Point Strikes by Sang H. Kim, Turtle Press (416 pages) which came out this year.  His girlfriend is actress, Cynthia Straus.  Alan has two beautiful daughters (both in their 20s) and one grandson.  I've met his entire family and girlfriend and they are the nicest people.  Alan has been featured in several Native films, magazines, and short films.  He just completed a role in Spec Ops which will air in July of this year on television (produced by Morining Star Entertainment). Alan's biography was featured on the film, "Dancing on the Edge," which talks of his world on the reservation and shows his victory win for the 2nd time as S.O.F. Knife Champion.  Alan and I did a 30 mins interview this week on KCIE 90.5 FM (Public Radio) in New Mexico.  Alan and I completed the 14th Annual Apache Knife Fighting & Battle Tactics seminar on the Apache Reservation last month.  He is a great friend and brother to me.  The information we teach at these seminars are based on information we receive from elders of the Apache bands...stories that were passed down from Great-great grandparents to great grandparents to grandparents, and so on.  These are stories of Apache fighting that you will not get from history books.  Many Apaches believed that having pictures taken of them took a piece of their spirit also, so few historic pictures are available.  One of the great-grandsons and great-great grandsons of Goyathlay (aka: Geronamo) lives in Colorado.  I met the great-great grandson, and he too is one of the nicest guys around.   Most of society knows very little of the Apaches, because they only know what they see on western movies or a few documentaries.  The Apache history goes so much deeper than that, and that is why 15 years ago I started researching and teaching our culture.  Those that really reasearch our culture will be facinated at what they'll find.



  Snake, Glad to see you are reading this stuff. I never mentioned Alan Tafoya as I figured he would not ever read this as he has never registered on the forum. My understanding is you only met him recently on the set of the TV show you filmed, If thats not correct, how long have you known him? Are you implying that you learned Apache Knife Fighting from him?

  You have mentioned the 14th Annual Apache Knife Fighting & Battle Tactics Seminar. Have you been instructing there with Allen Tafoya since the beginning? Is this something you and him started together?  Was this your first year to instruct there?


  What is your background with Apache Knife Fighting? Did you grow up on a Apache Reservation? Do you know anything about horses? The reason I first looked into this subject was because I found it interesting, not to be a critic.


shastana

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2009, 02:37:09 PM »

Hey Bryan...you should go check it out, seems you have serious doubts about whether Apache knife combat. This is my thoughts on the subject....

Any time you talk about Native Americans, you need to understand that you are analyzing a group of humans who were subjected to genocide and war by the US government, and white history was written from white perspective.  The knowledge of warcraft possessed by tribal groups in history books and photos are minimal representations from the white perspective.  Remember, savages was the term used to describe the enemy.  You think history books and photos will provide you with all the info you need to make a conclusion that Apaches did or did not include knives in their combatives?  And that Apache knife fighting is a fallacy?  :D

Well, there are countless historical records of combat with all Native Americans wielding  Knives, tomahawks, and bows.  And T-hawks and knives were thrown in battle.  US calvary men were impressed with this and mimicked their skill in camp tournaments!!   

And of steel... Nowhere does any native warrior declare they made steel tools and weapons prior to contact.  They learned how to fabricate weapons (like arrow points) from metal they either traded or took.

Multiple knives, multiple weapons carried on person...Carrying a quiver of arrows and a few knives, an extra T-hawk, etc was common among many tribal warriors for ions for one very good reason....they tend to break in battle!  Especially bone and stone! 

Apache and Sayoc kali are not even in the same ball park.  Sayoc is a FMA style evolved in recent years from family lineage and based solely on knife combat, the style revolves around the knife platform.  Apache knife combat was component of necessity from daily survival to raiding combat. The difference is the Apache (+ other tribal) tactician did not see fighting revolving around a particular weapon, but transitioned to the knife when in range or when other weapon was inferior.  The Apache tactician were the "Makita drill" and knife was one of many drill bits. 

Lastly, read "Geronimo" his autobiography and you will find out just how important the bow, knife, T-hawk were to Apache.  They as well as other tribes have a knife combat method (ever hear of Apache grip? we call it ice pick or reverse grip). 

Whether someone is teaching this method to the non-tribal public, and whether the instructors method is authentic is another issue.  But the fact that Apache and other tribal warriors used knives is indisputable.  And the fact that each tribe had developed tactics based on their environment, mission, weapon material and availability, and time frame is also indisputable.

Can't convince a skeptic in the 21st century that the Apache were very proficient with weapons, including knives...but maybe some day you can zoom back in time to 1860-80s and you can find out first hand how effective the Apache was as a warrior...with any weapon!

And Snake...O si yo!
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Blaquevagabond

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2009, 04:29:26 PM »

Snakeblocker,
I loved that deadliest warrior show! You kicked some ass. I like the knife throwing.I was wondering how would the Apache martial arts stand up to FMA!
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2009, 08:04:45 PM »


  Shastana, There are two threads on this going at the same time, read my words in both of them.


  I know plenty about Native Americans, my comparison of what was presented on the show to Sayoc Kali is pretty straight forward. These are the only two groups I have ever known who advocate the use of multiple knives. Tell me, who carries around six knives if they have a bow and arrows? Who carries around six knives if they are packing ammo and firearms? Show me some historical photographs of any Native American with more than one knife? How about some drawings of Native Americans with more than one knife?

 Where are the details of this in historical records, in artifacts? There may be some out there but I have never seen them or even heard a rumor of this occurrence. The only time I have known of it till Snake showed up on Spike TV pulling a bunch of knives like clowns getting out of a little car at the circus was Sayocs. In fact Sayocs were laughed right out of  some FMA circles for advocating their multiple knife and training belt tactics. 


 Maybe other people would like to chime in on this since I have people trying to school me on the subject, Does anyone advocate the carry of more than one or two knives?


« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 08:25:19 PM by Bryan »
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harvey

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2009, 12:48:57 AM »

It makes since to me that they would carrie multiple weapons if I was an Apache and another tried to take over my world I would definitely carrie more than two Knives. Since I do not live in that time i just carrie one knife. I would type more but I have to go train.

Thanks
Harvey
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shastana

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2009, 02:36:50 PM »

Bryan, I re-read your posts a bit, ok, now I understand your view a little better.  I see you are not condescending here, I misunderstood your views, so I retract my "schooling" overtone. I am also mixed blood white-Cherokee, so we are on the same page.  On a side note, you and I both know how it is to be a mixed blood, not enough to be a tribal insider, but not enough to be your pure euro.  It is a struggle to get truth from any angle about the past, huh?  Life in the middle...just glad it is 2000+, my blood father tried to hide his ethnicity to avoid all the hate.  Messed up world we live in sometimes...Back to topic.

I think the question expects a direct answer, yes or no.  Were knives and T-hawks thrown, and did warriors carry more than one or two knife or hawk?  Did all Apache warriors carry the same weapons and volume of weapons?

Photos
I just don't think there are good representations of warriors in photos, as most all are definitely prop-scenes. That said, I don't think photos are a great place to do research.

Western writers
From my research, there are only a few recorded accounts of great detail of how Apache warriors killed their enemy.  The most active writings about Apache occurred during the Apache Wars, well after pistols, long knives, and rifles were acquired by Apache. Writers did record use of modern weapons and included spear and bow tactics, which agrees with Geronimos' accounts.

I say few, because there were rarely any survivors, that is fact that they were very brutal. Geronimo talks about this in his autobiography, sparing no one.  Also, if a story did somehow get relayed, it was probably romanticized and spun to circumvent the fear of Apache by settlers for the sake of the US gvt.  Reporting "killed by knife wound" without details, was is a stabbing, slashing or thrown knife? 

There are also little mention of bolas, throwing sticks, or man traps being used by Apache, but there is tribal evidence these hunting tools/tactics were used as weapons of war at some point in time or another, as their uses are still practiced today.

Tribal oral history
So maybe tribal story telling is a great place to start, from the stories told in oral history, which is supposed to be unchanged due to strict codes and ethics embraced by the story tellers. I think Snake mentions that these stories and skills were passed down through family, and this is exactly in line with everything we know about the Apache with regards to other aspects of their life...cooking, medicine, religion, and so on.  I know that we know very little about most tribes to this day, in fact, a good 1/8 of North American tribes and their ways completely wiped off the face of the planet.  Gone. History erased untold truths.


Specialization among warriors
 My research shows that each warrior was unique in both tactics and weapon choice, just like any other tribe. Then you had classes within the warrior bands, upper, mid, lower.  Then the rifle and pistol were adopted, replacing many primitive weapons.  So there was so much variability, that to answer how often multiple throwing knives were carried becomes a hard question.   Snakes comment about carrying multiple knives on the show, he states "if Apache could carry 10 knives he would"...his comment is interpreted by me...that if a warrior was very skilled at knife throwing and the particular mission required stealth in close, he'd carry a few throwing knives and use them.  Throwing knives could be carried on belt, around neck, in legging mocassins.  Could a long knife be thrown as well as a last resort, yes.

Other ancient projectiles and war
We know from history that ancient Chinese had throwing weapons, so did the Vikings.  Chinese used throwing knives, stars, darts.  Vikings threw axes.  American Indians, including Apache, threw weapons as well.

Here is are some quotes to ponder:

-------------------

http://www.indians.org/articles/throwing-knives.html

Native American used instruments such as throwing knives to fight in their battles.  When Europeans arrived, the Native American Indians tried unsuccessfully, to use these throwing knives against the Europeans invasion into their territory. Warfare was not just a physical experience for the Native American tribes but also viewed as a spiritual experience. The killing of an enemy warrior was considered to be the least important part of battle. When Native American Indians fought with enemy Indian tribes their favorite weapons were throwing knives or tomahawks.

Some of the Indian fighting styles can be thought of today as forms of guerrilla warfare. For years, Fighting between the Europeans and Indians which took place over decades were in the end devastating for the Native Americans. The use of  throwing knives was thought to be especially cruel by Europeans and other’s that fought the Indians.

When horses were introduced to the Native American Indians, they became excellent mounted warriors. The introduction of the horse had a big impact on Native American cultures in the Great Plains of North America and was important to the skill of throwing knives. This new mode of transportation made it possible for some tribes to greatly expand their territories. The United States military fought with the Native American tribes which helped the US learn about the fighting skills of the tribes.

War chiefs were usually chosen to lead war parties because they had proven themselves in prior conflicts. Native American Indian's weapons of war not only included throwing knives but included clubs, hatchets, bows and arrows, lances, and sticks. Later they would become marksmen with guns. War parties used the element of surprise as one of their main weapons, as well as a concentrated force. If by chance they were outnumbered, retreating was not a dishonor. Retreat was a strategic move, often used to trick the enemy. Native American Indian warriors also made every attempt to remove their wounded from the field of battle and to recover their dead. The enemy dead were sometimes buried or left in the fields for the enemy to claim.


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Wickepedia -knife throwing

Although it was popularized in America in the late 19th century by traveling acts such as the Barnum & Bailey Circus, the history of knife throwing dates much further back. The art of knife throwing was first used in martial arts or hunting applications. It has been incorporated into the martial disciplines of the Japanese as well as some African and Native American tribes. In such cases, throwing a weapon when fighting is generally thought of as a risk. If unsuccessful it can leave the thrower without a weapon. However, many warriors traditionally carried two or more weapons at the same time.

----------------------


During warfare, Indians used the throwing knives to defend themselves against invaders and enemies. This was a brilliant and radical development in self defense, as they didn't have to come close to the enemy in battle. The knives could be used to accurately pin a target from up to thirty feet away, allowing the Indians the opportunity to remain hidden while defending themselves, instead of putting their life in a line of danger. The knives were also used for practical purposes like breaking open hard shells on food such as coconut and melons.  Although the throwing knives are no longer used in war, their legends continue and they are frequently used for training purposes in the military and police force.
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Bryant

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2009, 07:48:00 PM »

Watching re-broadcast right now.
Great Job Snake!
it was a pleasure meeting you at Jeff Laun's last summer
-B.
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Sun_Helmet

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2009, 12:23:11 AM »

In fact Sayocs were laughed right out of  some FMA circles for advocating their multiple knife and training belt tactics. 

Maybe other people would like to chime in on this since I have people trying to school me on the subject, Does anyone advocate the carry of more than one or two knives?

Could you please elaborate on your facts? What FMA circles are you talking about besides the ones who already had an issue with practically all FMA / knife systems that do not train in their style?

The second thing that stands out is the claim that Native Americans would carry multiple blade weapons and tend to throw them and use them in similar fashion as advocated by Sayoc Kali. I am no fan of Sayoc and believe they lost the plot in modern training crossing from training based on facts into training based on comic book illustrators personal fantasies of what knife combat should look like.


This is actually for Dwight. Bryan is using the term comic book illustrator because ODDLY enough, he seems to think that one lone Sayoc instructor who works in comics professionally dictates the curriculum and training methods. We have MULTIPLE lawyers, doctors, LEOs, military, etc. as members and instructors. Bryan's misrepresentation of how Sayoc evolved is grossly offpoint. The Sayocs have a family system. One of the instructors in this system (myself) does not come up with the core principles or innovations of the whole group/family.

I would also like to see the pictures of any Native American wearing the Sayoc Rig either afoot or on horseback.

This is another misrepresentation of basic Sayoc training principles. The Sayoc Rig is a TRAINING rig. It is not something one carries in real life. It merely indicates placement of blades on various locations so that the student can figure out for themselves the best and quickest way they can deploy their blade. Also, once you know where people can deploy their blades, you can actually train to work off of those pre-deploy action chains. Otherwise, this is like saying boxers carry focus mitts into the ring when they fight .

So you won't even see a Sayoc guy wearing a live blade rig because that's not what's it for.

Of course, the aformentioned Sayocs wanted a pint of blood, a tattoo, some 1-3 years and $5,000 for a basic instructorship:odd people and curious people went to them at first, and then their business plan was apparently ...suicidal.
Hock

Hock -- I am not sure where you are getting your info about Sayoc but what do you mean by business plan going suicidal? Sayoc was just the cover story in last month's BLADE magazine, also in TACTICAL KNIVES (Sayoc- Daniel Winkler Tomahawk), and we have numerous dvds in the works. Our seminars are growing across the globe now. Sayoc seminars were just held in the west coast, Greece, Puerto Rico and even Russia the past month. You may not be aware because numerous Sayoc full instructors are now the ones teaching them.

We're busier than ever! We just don't hit the forums so much these days so that may be why you are getting that impression.

As per the tattoo, some individuals like getting tattoos for inspiration or pride -- some don't like tats --- there's plenty of Sayoc instructors who have been with Sayoc for over 15 years and do not have one.

As for blood... we want a gallon not a pint. :D

--Rafael--









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Crafty

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2009, 12:42:03 AM »

Sun Hemlet whats so different about sayoc training methods compared to other fma systems i been to a sayoc seminar and a hock seminar the experience i had was hocks was nearly 9 months ago and i can still remember everything.The sayoc seminar i didnt pick up much but tom kier was a nice guy and amazing martial artist. :-\
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Sun_Helmet

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2009, 08:53:07 AM »

Sun Hemlet whats so different about sayoc training methods compared to other fma systems i been to a sayoc seminar and a hock seminar the experience i had was hocks was nearly 9 months ago and i can still remember everything.The sayoc seminar i didnt pick up much but tom kier was a nice guy and amazing martial artist. :-\

Hi Crafty,

I can elaborate more but perhaps on a separate thread since this is about Apache knife fighting. However, everyone learns differently and people gravitate to the style of teaching and methods they like.

If you have an instructor(s) you can learn from better --- then that is the core goal for everyone.

If Hock is someone you learn from quickest then I wouldn't try and convince you why Sayoc works for others. Now that too may be a bad business plan, but we think students can learn from whomever they want. Even from several systems simultaneously. The main goal is to produce quality guys and as you stated Tom Kier is amazing -- so Sayoc certainly worked for him.

---

On a separate note but more to the thread topic. If anyone wants to read a good source on Apache and Filipinos using blades in battle, then pick up the book by Cornelius Smith. He was a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient and fought  both Apaches and Filipinos in the late 1800's and turn of the century. He wrote extensively about his experiences with other tribes as well like the Lakota.

--Rafael--
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Crafty

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2009, 10:08:48 AM »

 8) thanks
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2009, 12:57:03 PM »



-Rafael- Start a new thread if you want to send up smoke signals promoting Sayoc Kali.

Sun_Helmet

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2009, 06:50:23 AM »



-Rafael- Start a new thread if you want to send up smoke signals promoting Sayoc Kali.

You do a better job for me - see your numerous posts prior to my response. In the future just send me an email via sayoc.com whenever you decide to bring up Sayoc in this forum's threads. I can just correct it and then you can call it "promotion"

Thanks buddy.    ;D

---

When facts are distorted, only distorters will have facts




« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 06:58:11 AM by Sun_Helmet »
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Sun_Helmet

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2009, 07:07:41 AM »

Back to the Geronimo topic:

Check out the biography of Henry Ware Lawton.

Geronimo was said to personally give credit to Lawton for wearing him down with his pursuit.

Lawton was sent to fight in the Philippines after Geronimo was captured.

In the islands, Lawton was then shot and killed by a Filipino who was coincidentally under the command of Licerio Geronimo.


--Rafael--
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 07:27:35 AM by Sun_Helmet »
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Bryan

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Re: Apache Knife Fighting Details
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2009, 10:46:47 AM »

Back to the Geronimo topic:

Check out the biography of Henry Ware Lawton.

Geronimo was said to personally give credit to Lawton for wearing him down with his pursuit.

Lawton was sent to fight in the Philippines after Geronimo was captured.

In the islands, Lawton was then shot and killed by a Filipino who was coincidentally under the command of Licerio Geronimo.


--Rafael--

  What is your point? There is no historical record of Lawton ever killing anyone with a knife. There is no record of Lawton being a eye witness to any Indian or Filipino running around with half a dozen knives. All his fights were firearms and he was later killed by the shot of a rifle from a sharpshooter.
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