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[Benjamin Liu]

But these days I wonder, has WW II Combatives sort of been knocked off its high horse by Krav Maga? In the way that most WW II people have now been force-fed the truth that there does exist OTHER military fighting systems that did not originate in Shanghia, China? Has it been largely forgotten? Almost an asterisk in history? Yes? No?

I mean, look at all the Krav schools worlwide of all types and look at all the WW II schools.

Hock

IMO WWII Combatives can't be knocked off a high horse because it has never been on one since probably WWII, as far as the market is concerned.  I don't question that it works, it is just that from what I've seen it has always been a niche market.  Karate and Tae Kwon Do are pretty much the most common styles as well as the ones with the most stable history in the US.  They have been around long enough that they cannot be seen as fads.  MMA is popular in the entertainment media now, but IMO it is still a fad, and the same can be said about Tae-Bo and those that copy it.  Self defense schools of any type are a very small portion of the market. 

Although Krav Maga is based on a military style, it is not really marketed the same way as WWII Combatives.  KM targets average people, while the marketing for WWII Combatives I've seen often targets people who already are interested in military combatives or serious self-defense.  Self Defense Forums used to be heavily into WWII Combatives, and by the type of talk in those forums, I don't think they would attract the typical soccer mom.  I'm not crtiicizing them, I was active in SDF as well, just pointing out that this type of thing is not what the average person would probably consider "too violent." 

[JimH]

Benjamin,
I fully agree with your last.
              .................................................................
in the united states,it is written in many publications that 3-4 percent of the population trains in a martial art.

Of that 4 percent the majority have trained in TMA's ,arts or systems that are now life long persuits,arts that take years to learn and master.

Then we have niche markets such as MMA,BJJ,and so called military styled arts.

Of the military arts WWII combatives is probably below some but on par with most,but combatives is losing ground slowly.
Why?

Because as Ben and others have pointed out ,it is seen as being too violent by many,it is,(in the wake of these so called modern combatives) to be antiquated,while many of the so called newer combatives are sport and not true Self Defense,people can relate to them more as the alternatives declared are being able to prevent,injur or perhaps kill,while combatives is geared soley to kill or to seriously incapicitate the opponent.

Also today,WWII combatives is seen as a niche,it is done by so called Hard Core people who only want to Kill,but the problem is we are moving away from the base system WWII combatives provided.

The teachers today have developed their own systems of combatives,(not that it is wrong) but they added and took away what they felt important or not (as many practioners who do not stay traditional do) and this has caused too much diversity,though the base in most is the same.

Biddle was different than Fairbairn,who was different from Applegate,who differed from O'Neil,who differed from Underwood,who was different to Nelson,who differed from Karry,who differs from Steiner,who differs from Cestari,who differs from McCann who differs from Todd,who differs from Perkins,who differs from Morrison on and on.

Then we add in no compete clauses when  people live hundreds to thousands of miles from their instructors so that causes changes by those who want to teach.

The niche is so small and the products so different and many have a product and decide to call it WII Combatives,(which is rare) though they insinuate it contains the main points of WWII ,FAS style,combatives,but then you have Defendo (which Wolfe does which is Hapkido over WWII materials) to defendu,to combato,combatu,attack proof on and on,it is different and changes from instructor to instructor.

Krav Maga though it has differences all claim to be the art of some form of israeli combat structure.be it civilian combat against terrorists to Police,to border patrol,to the military,to special ops units of military,so even though some some of Krav maga looks like TMAs like Tae Kwon Do or Karate,others look like Judo/Jujitsu,others still resemble boxing and wrestling mix,but it all lives and is promoted under one banner Israeli Military arts,this has peeked a section of the populace but as said it is a small percent of the 4 percent who train in any art.

If we said which system of so called military H2H would be the easiest to teach and produce effective Practioners thenWWII combatives would win hands down.
But
Are people willing and prepared to just study and train a Killing art with no other choice in the mix of outcomes?

WWII combatives is good for its intended purpose to be taught and used on a true battlefield,use on the street presents more liabilities  and this is even said by practioners such as Cestrai who advise training in arts like judo ,jujitsu or boxing ,to add to the mix of outcomes available.

[theardri]

IMO WWII Combatives can't be knocked off a high horse because it has never been on one since probably WWII, as far as the market is concerned.  I don't question that it works, it is just that from what I've seen it has always been a niche market.  Karate and Tae Kwon Do are pretty much the most common styles as well as the ones with the most stable history in the US.  They have been around long enough that they cannot be seen as fads.  MMA is popular in the entertainment media now, but IMO it is still a fad, and the same can be said about Tae-Bo and those that copy it.  Self defense schools of any type are a very small portion of the market. 

Although Krav Maga is based on a military style, it is not really marketed the same way as WWII Combatives.  KM targets average people, while the marketing for WWII Combatives I've seen often targets people who already are interested in military combatives or serious self-defense.  Self Defense Forums used to be heavily into WWII Combatives, and by the type of talk in those forums, I don't think they would attract the typical soccer mom.  I'm not crtiicizing them, I was active in SDF as well, just pointing out that this type of thing is not what the average person would probably consider "too violent." 

I think the problem is that the marketing of SOME of the Combatives groups, comes across as “we are the best there is, anything else is shite”.  If you ever stumble across say Lt.X, you will see that attitude. Then there are the descendants of Mr Nelsons, who make the comment that Sykes, Fairburn and Applegate were not REAL Combatives instructors, thus anyone following their route/lineage is not the real deal.

And (sorry to start a sentence with that) that is the issues with a lot of WW2 Combatives. “The real deal”. Almost every one is scrambling to show who they trained with, then discrediting anyone who dares to say they are on a par. Talking of Col. Applegate being a “nice old man” for certifying someone, or “Not really one of Mr Nelsons inner circle of students” etc.

That has gotten me into a lot of flame wars recently, and I just nod, smile and go “oh really, how about that”. The real answer is, Combatives should and IS evolving, it would be like sticking with WW2 armaments as the “best there ever was”, yeah it was combat proven, but that does not mean perfect.

[theardri]

Just picking on a few points

Of the military arts WWII combatives is probably below some but on par with most,but combatives is losing ground slowly.
Why?

Because as Ben and others have pointed out ,it is seen as being too violent by many,it is,(in the wake of these so called modern combatives) to be antiquated,while many of the so called newer combatives are sport and not true Self Defense,people can relate to them more as the alternatives declared are being able to prevent,injur or perhaps kill,while combatives is geared soley to kill or to seriously incapicitate the opponent.

What I find interesting is a lot of the TMA/MMA guys do not get, is that a lot of what they do, if done at full strength, full power and with intent, will also kill.

They piss and moan that it’s (Combatives) either too rough or too simple, and any one who knows martial arts will never fall for it (that’s wrong form my experience but…), well if 3 –4 % of people are learning martial art, that leaves 96 – 97% of the populace who are not. And well, I’ve always had issues with the untrained Idiots who think a “haymaker punch” will win the day. I got into Combatives because a lot of the Martial arts I’d looked into (and perhaps even gotten low level belts in) did not work well out of the Dojo. I never liked grappling in a fight (on the nasty filthy debris strewn ground), and certainly never came across someone in bare feet and a martial arts uniform who was spoiling for a fight. I respect martial arts, and might have even gotten into them if there had been a better range in my hometown. I just happened top be a lucky SOB, and had Geoff Todd based in my home town. His group seems to attract all sorts. My ex (a very pretty dainty busty lass) got into it in a big way, and came out of the Phase test (failed sadly) with cracked ribs, bruises, an a cracked shin. She still goes (different city now). You have me (academic), LOTS of University Students, Blue collar workers etc.

Also today,WWII combatives is seen as a niche,it is done by so called Hard Core people who only want to Kill,but the problem is we are moving away from the base system WWII combatives provided.

Hmmm I love the way people (not you Jim) Misrepresent Combatives. When I joined people were telling me not too. You had to “fight your way in to get in” and “they held a knife to your throat first lesson”, well the by fight, I had to pass a back ground check (no other martial arts do this at home) and yeah, it was a floppy rubber knife. You then heard we were a’’ “Tanks boys” his private army or something. Well yeah I am loyal(ish) to Tank, but I’m not that Hard Core, I mean come on I have a PhD in Chemistry, that makes me a geek, not a Psyco (in the same peoples eyes), my ex is a Marketing major who wears a lot of Pink. Some Cops, a Medical Student, and a fitter and Turner, oh and a Cambodian Rugby Prop. None of us looked “hardcore” none of us went about wearing the equivalent of “tap out” shirts (what ever that would be? “Eyes throat knees” shirts)

It’s a marketing thing. You put “Military” near it and people freak. A Norse heathen friend of mine (I’m a Pagan FYI) called it “Killing class” while a young Pagan lass I mentored for a few years, does Kung Fu (don’t know which flavour) and to my Heathen friend that is “cool” and “peaceful”.

The teachers today have developed their own systems of combatives,(not that it is wrong) but they added and took away what they felt important or not (as many practioners who do not stay traditional do) and this has caused too much diversity,though the base in most is the same.

Biddle was different than Fairbairn,who was different from Applegate,who differed from O'Neil,who differed from Underwood,who was different to Nelson,who differed from Karry,who differs from Steiner,who differs from Cestari,who differs from McCann who differs from Todd,who differs from Perkins,who differs from Morrison on and on.

Very very true. In Geoff’s class you learn the “military way?” and the “how not to go to prison way”, I bet most civilian classes do this. I’ve yet to have to “deploy” more than the sidestep and tactical control and restraint aspects of the class, but I think I would be unlikely to break a knee, or land a  chin jab for anything short of a major threat.

What we learn (and if you ever see one of Geoff’s Books it’s there) is the “medical consequences” of what we are doing. That sobers a lot of them up. Knowing a strike to the back of the neck can kill, paralyze, or just plain screw up someone’s life, tends to make you choose something different. I wonder sometimes if the Martial artists learn the consequences of some of the moves they do, or hell the history behind it?

Combatives is 90% skills and 5% psychology class, and 5% history lesson.

Ok that is my say, I really better return to the lab

[arnold]

I group Australia and New Zealand in the same geographical area, hence the aformentioned term of "down blunder", and I checked my records, I did have to take world geography in college. And yes, I am truly insecure, except when it comes to line dancing, firearms, and crappy beer made in Wisconsin. But they do have a battleship named after their state.

[Benjamin Liu]

it would be like sticking with WW2 armaments as the “best there ever was”, yeah it was combat proven, but that does not mean perfect.

On gun forums there ARE many people who'd argue that when it comes to the Garand and even more so, the 1911.  The "1911 vs Glock" debate, for example, is a big one that spans just about all internet gun forums. 

[theardri]

I group Australia and New Zealand in the same geographical area, hence the aformentioned term of "down blunder", and I checked my records, I did have to take world geography in college. And yes, I am truly insecure, except when it comes to line dancing, firearms, and crappy beer made in Wisconsin. But they do have a battleship named after their state.

New Zealand and Australia are ethnically and socially VERY different.

You can insult WI all you like bub! I only live and work here, I don't drink the beer, as beer is not my drink of Choice (good Scottish Single Malt is, preferably from Islay).

You can be as abrasive as you like old chap, it will still not change the facts.

[theardri]

it would be like sticking with WW2 armaments as the “best there ever was”, yeah it was combat proven, but that does not mean perfect.

On gun forums there ARE many people who'd argue that when it comes to the Garand and even more so, the 1911.  The "1911 vs Glock" debate, for example, is a big one that spans just about all internet gun forums. 

Sorry I prefer sharp shinny things to things that go bang, and always bate the "the katana was the pinnacle of sword making” crowd. One has to work with what one can get today. I own (and carry) a mini smatchet, and I do LOVE it to pieces, but I don’t think it’s the “best”, same goes for any knife, it might be the best now (or then), but someone will improve on it.

[JimH]

Debate of Pistols M1911,45 cal pistol versus a Glock ,9mm,well we all know there is no Debate the M1911,45 cal is the superior weapon,lol,lol.

The 45 rips a nice size whole and has knock down power not replicated by many other pistols.

The 9mm as the 38 are seen on the streets with the Police Departments because they make nice holes and lets people fire many rounds to cause bleed outs,the 45 on the other hand is not so designed,LOL.

Just as in close range or House to house,the prefered weapon would be a shotgun over an M16 or M4.

As the debate with WWII combatives to Krav Naga or any other art ,style or system,one must choose the weapon of choice for the actions enterd into.

If one is  on the Battlefield one may want WWII or the 45,but in the civilian world laws and rules make a difference,so other choices must be found or conformed to by the powers that be.

So H2H in the regular,civilian oriented world, becomes subdue,but not kill,restrain or pin rather than disable and cripple,the same is found with the weapons of choice being the 9mm ,38 or what ever the governing bodies decide the police may use in and amongst the civilian populace and that works for the Police.

Should WWII combatives or similar lined H2H ?
Yes
But
People must be prepared to deal with the outcome if all they know is destroy the opponent,(true Military combatives,not civilian or sport influenced)

Should the 45 cal be allowed for civilian use?
Yes
But The user must know that they must deal with the outcome of its use (as the outcome of any weapon from 22 on up,one never knows the outcome when they pull the trigger,the outcome is found miliseconds to seconds later)

Right weapon,(H2H ,Blade or firearm,for the Right Job.

[Nick Hughes]

When it comes to guns I'm the same as I am with martial arts...I am an unabashed whore and will use what is best.  I have no loyalty to a brand or type as long as it does what is required of it.  That also stems from working EP round the world and having to work with whatever you're issued.

Having said all that certain arts are better than others for certain things and certain guns are better than others.  One of my top students Daniel recently attended a weekend long tactical shooting course.  He borrowed my Glock 21 (.45 calibre) and neither he, nor anyone else using Glocks had a single incident all weekend long.  Didn't matter what ammo, what drill or anything else.  NOT ONE...PERIOD.

During the same weekend both gentlemen using 1911s had recurring problems (stovepipes, misfires, jams etc) and so did a guy using a SIG.

When I did my first ever executive protection course in the UK we used a mix of Taurus, Glock and 1911.  Again, no problems with the Glocks (ever during 2 weeks of range work every day), witnessed one stovepipe on a Taurus and 3 problems with the 1911s.

I dont' have an issue with the .45 calibre round (I agree it's the best, especially in cold climates where the cold causes capilliaries to close down) but the 1911s pitiful magazine capacity coupled with the empirical evidence I've seen shooting round the world makes me grab my Glock.

Nick

PS:  Don't get me started on Kimbers either.  I bought a brand new one and got jams and misfeeds every second round right out of the box.  I was told it was the tolerances and after 500 rounds it wouldn't be a problem.  1,500 rounds later (damn I got good at tap rack bang) I traded it on the .45 calibre Glock in the store owner's case.  5,000 rounds later, still to have a problem.

[arnold]

I must have read the post wrong as I thought we were talking about geographical locations, not ethic or social issues. Worked in WI for Harley Davidson during the 70's, hence my aformentioned issues with their beer production. Went on tour when I was in Scotland 3 years ago and was able to take in many of the old distilleries. And I still do not relish the taste of scotch, single malt or otherwise. I prefer well made potato vodka. As for the supposed insult to WI, any State that has an Iowa class Battleship named afterthem I hold in high regard. And if you talking about my shot at "down blunder" then you have not had the pleasure of reading any of my previuos posts where I  held their military and their rugby players in hih esteem.  And I am not abrasive, I am coarse. I reserve abrasives for refinishing old wooden cabinets and firearms

[Professor]

PS:  Don't get me started on Kimbers either.  I bought a brand new one and got jams and misfeeds every second round right out of the box.  I was told it was the tolerances and after 500 rounds it wouldn't be a problem.  1,500 rounds later (damn I got good at tap rack bang) I traded it on the .45 calibre Glock in the store owner's case.  5,000 rounds later, still to have a problem.

I've owned four different Kimbers....never a problem....   Glocks a good gun.

[JimH]

A .45 no matter what spout it comes out is a Great round,and that is what does the damage,so the weapon really is no matter.

I like the M1911 as it is versatile,gets wet,dirty,can be used as a blunt force weapon or hammer,lol,and it will still work.

I kept it in the post as something Old,yet reliable and still usable today to pack a wallop,(as WWII type combatives)

I like the 45's best no matter the weapon,then 9mm,then my combat  magnum,then any other weapon,that fires,cuts,slashes,stabs,smashes,lol.

[JimH]

Just came across this story of a 70 year old British man,who fought off 4 attackers  in Germany with Martial skills he learnmed in the Military many years ago.
The attackers were 18-25 years.

Good for him , it shows what a good bit of training these men got back then that they can remember it and use it dceades later without up keep.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061024/od_nm/germany_pensioner_dc

[Nick Hughes]

Story from the UK is that he's ex SAS.  Hope I'm still kicking arse when I'm that age.

Nick