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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • February 08, 2012, 04:07:08 PM
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Author Topic: WW II Combatives off its Horse?  (Read 5784 times)

theardri

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2006, 08:12:43 AM »

I must have read the post wrong as I thought we were talking about geographical locations, not ethic or social issues. Worked in WI for Harley Davidson during the 70's, hence my aformentioned issues with their beer production. Went on tour when I was in Scotland 3 years ago and was able to take in many of the old distilleries. And I still do not relish the taste of scotch, single malt or otherwise. I prefer well made potato vodka. As for the supposed insult to WI, any State that has an Iowa class Battleship named afterthem I hold in high regard. And if you talking about my shot at "down blunder" then you have not had the pleasure of reading any of my previuos posts where I  held their military and their rugby players in hih esteem.  And I am not abrasive, I am coarse. I reserve abrasives for refinishing old wooden cabinets and firearms

Be nice to those fine old fire arms ;)

You lumped Oz and NZ in one. They are very different countries on a geographical and a social level. One was founded by the lower classes another was founded by the middle and upper classes. I just do not like being labled what I am not. I'm a Kiwi (married to an American (don't call her a Yanks as she was born and raised in the south)), I like Australia to visit(I’ve been there twenty times in my 34 years), however  I'd only live there to work, not settle. As I said you CAN insult WI all you like, I live here, work here, but am none to fond of it (yet), it is not home, and the culture is not my idea of ideal (the number of DUI’s for one disgust me). It’s also not a CCW state yet.


Finally, I like verbal sparing, so don't worry, I've a thick arsed skin (this message is for every one). I will give as good as  I get ;)

Slan agat

Gareth
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theardri

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2006, 08:13:59 AM »

Just came across this story of a 70 year old British man,who fought off 4 attackers  in Germany with Martial skills he learnmed in the Military many years ago.
The attackers were 18-25 years.

Good for him , it shows what a good bit of training these men got back then that they can remember it and use it dceades later without up keep.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061024/od_nm/germany_pensioner_dc

WOW they trained em well back then ;)
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JimH

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2006, 07:15:42 PM »

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Professor

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2006, 07:55:05 PM »

Here is a follow up to the 70 year old story.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=412399&in_page_id=1811



"I saw his boot coming towards my face
and I thought: 'No you don't, sunshine.'
 I grabbed his leg and twisted it until he
too was screaming out in agony.



Top Marks!!!!
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Hock

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2010, 03:09:43 PM »

Just did a mailout last week to include several of my friends in WW II combatives and all their emails came back as dead.

Which made me wonder. Is there anyone in the USA, Canada or the UK still offcially teaching WW II Combatives these days?

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2010, 04:30:02 PM »

Guys-couple thoughts from WW-you know i am sort of one sided towards KM-sence i have taken classes/seminars in the KM field here in the US and in Europe-the main difference i found to be is that in Europe (at least in Portugal,Greece , and Poland)-even though the classes i attended had  civilians-many of which were cops or security personnel--they were taught by instructors who all went trhough class in Isreal or other combat oriented countries-and- the tactics shown to me were all designed to finish off the opponent or at least put him out of the picture-these tactics plus other tactics shown to me by various people- that included
a Mr Howard Keyabu of hawaii (a green baret -viet nam era-)  and of course seminars given by Hock, Michael depasqualo senior/ Jr-Gary  Alexander-and some pro boxers -all are geared towards winning a "street-combat altercation-
As  far as WWII combat tactics is concerned- if you pull off the covering of WWII
tactics and teach them to many civilians -the civilian thinks it is too grusome and go back to BJJ/Judo/etc-same for Krav Maga-its hard for me to get people to take it here
they want to kick the bag-punch the bag-but i dont see many go in the ring and slug it out-??? -The parents want the kid to get a belt-be disciplined-and go home happy.
You wil also notice that the Army combatitives course is geared towards grapeling-no weapons-no blinding-biting-breaking-what can i say?
But- Ill keep on teaching-and studying relality type tactics
WW (ELB) "speed of light"
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JimH

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2010, 05:52:52 PM »

Here are some people who still teach WWII Combatives:

Clint Sporman head of the CarL Cestari line.
Robert Spiegel of the Charles Nelson Line.
There are people teaching John Kary American Combatives
Kelly McCann still teaches his combatives
John Perkins teaches some WWII Combatives  in His system and is coming out with a book and ,I guess,more specific training in WWII Combatives.

I am sure there are others but these are the ones I am familiar with.

WW.
I like your list of Hard Core ,No Nonsense ,Trainers.

Quote WW:
"the tactics shown to me were all designed to finish off the opponent or at least put him out of the picture-these tactics plus other tactics shown to me by various people- that included
a Mr Howard Keyabu of hawaii (a green baret -viet nam era-)  and of course seminars given by Hock, Michael depasqualo senior/ Jr-Gary  Alexander-and some pro boxers -all are geared towards winning a "street-combat altercation"

The weekend in Atlantic City Training two weeks ago I was with Gary Alexander and Michael DePasquali Jr. and got in some time training with them.
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whitewolf

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2010, 06:14:49 PM »

Wish i could have been in atlantic city with you-
what is interesting in the study of  WWII combatives is that one can take most any tactic and add to it or change the basic move and you go  right into a destructive
tactic-
i.e.-a tactic that has one going around to the rear opens many moves that will
incapacitate your opponent-
1-double ear cupping slap then into eye gauge
2-double ear slap pull head nack drive knee into lower part of spine
3-push back of head forward as you strike front of throat with thumb side of hand
4-run one hand up back of head gripping hair at roots-palm on head-other hand hammer fists face as you pull head back
dirty fighting-not for the weak at heart or your kung fuu charlie type
add to this -basic boxing for balance-and speed
comments-WW
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Hock

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2010, 07:49:21 PM »

But, who is calling it
"World War II Combatives?"
Anyone?

Hock
(it was all of Kary's people's emails that were dead. I don't think Kary's is. But the people I knew with him are.)

whitewolf

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2010, 07:59:22 PM »

No Hock i dont think any one is calling it that any more-
Most young people dont even know much about WW II
oh i sent you a private mesasge-WW
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Hock

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2010, 12:05:26 PM »

JimH writes...

"No one is using the term WWII Combatives,to denote their teachings.
Most have included more than the Fairbairn,Sykes,Applegate,O'Neil materials of basic Jujitsu/Combat Judo techniques employed by the UK and US Commandos of WWII.

Mr Sporman teaches Mr Cestari's complete program which includes specifics of WWII combatives,Jujitsu,street,cane,sticks and other weapons,so it is not only WWII combatives.

Mr Spiegel teaches Charles Nelson Self Defense,so unless one knew that Mr Nelson 's materials were based on the teachings of O'Neil and others they would not know what was taught until they went to training or spoke to Mr Spiegel.

Mr Kary's people do still teach his American Combatives.

Mr Perkins includes WWII Combatives into his System ,so it is not stand alone,but as I mentioned he is coming out with a book on WWII combatives so it may have a more independent role in his teachings.(but I do not know that for sure yet)

Mr McCann teaches it as his form of Combatives,but does not call it WWII combatives.

So unless one knew where to look or who to look for they would not immediately find WWII Combatives instructors.

The majority of those listed who teach it today learned what they teach from Mr Nelson and or Mr Cestari
Mr Cestari,Mr Grasso,Mr Kasper,Mr Steiner,Mr Spiegel were students of Mr Nelson.
Mr Cestari,Mr Grasso and Mr Spiegel are Instructors under Mr Nelson.
Mr Sporman ,Mr Grasso and Mr Kasper were friends and students of Mr Cestari,with Mr Sporman being the Head of Mr Cestari's art.
Mr Kary and Mr Perkins trained with Mr Cestari.
Mr McCann was a student/friend of Mr Kasper.

If one searches Carl Cestari on you tube ,one will see Mr Cestari materials,Mr Sporman teaching and Mr Cestari teaching Mr Kary.

WWII combatives was/is a NO NONSENSE approach to H2H combat on the Battlefield.
There was nothing taught that was not meant to Kill or Incapacitate the enemy and prevent them from fighting on.
It was based on a small set of techniques and took hours to teach,for the FAS type materials.
We had others like the US Navy V5 program that was a system with a lot more techniques and a mix of Boxing,Judo,wrestling.

This is,sorry to say,Not what is taught today in many US Military branches,though the USMC MCMAP comes close.(for some reason they,the USMC, are also employing the sport based art of MMA now to generate competitiveness ?)

US Army Special Forces and Rangers still include the training of combat judo/WWII Combatives type training in their Courses and in their teachings.

Hock

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2010, 12:05:57 PM »

Wonder if they use the old name in the UK anymore?

Hock

JimH

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2010, 01:53:02 PM »

There is a Group in the UK,CODA,(Combative Oriental and Defendu Arts),Defendu was the name of Fairbairns art and they teach it as their WWII Combatives.
They teach other arts from Japan ,Okinawa and China with a seperate class for Defendu/WWII Combatives.
They are also associated with the Gung Ho Chuan,which was Mr Kaspers USMC WWII H2H program.
(I did not list Gung Ho Chuan on the US list as since Mr Kasper's death I do not know if they still have classes in New Jersey and or who heads the new group,if there is one.
I have met others on other forums who teach it but in various places and to small groups.
Last time I tried to call the New Jersey school,I got a message that they were over seas teaching various US and Foreign Agencies.)

The British Military reintroduced H2h around the 1980's in the form of Jap.Slapping,which was Jujitsu ,based on Fairbairns teachings.
They did not use the name WWII combatives.

We have Lee Morrison who has included WWII Combatives into his art of Urban Combatives ,but he does not teach the techniques seperate from his course.

Then we had Bob Spour who had a Good knowledge of Jap slapping /WWII Combatives but sold it as SAS H2H and then everyone found out he was a liar and never served in the SAS,so even though his version was good it was dismised due to him being a fraud.

We have Mr Wolfe,out of Canada ,who has groups in Europe and he calls his art Defendo,which is a play on Fairbairn's art and Wolfe claims it to be WWII Combatives, He even has reenactments now ),but his teachings are Hapkido,straight up with no real WWII Combatives in the program.
Just a way to sell Hapkido by calling it something else with a smaller nitch,and more likelyhood of more business.(which worked for him till they caught on it was not legit Fairbairn materials.)

There is another Group out of Canada ,(Canadian Use of Force Systems),which teaches a WWII combatives program developed by a man named Bill Underwood.
Underwood was supposed to have been a student and or teacher of WWII Combatives at Camp X.
Mr Underwood grew up in the UK and learned a lot of Jujitsu from the Traveling shows the Japanese Jujitsu/Judo players did.
Mr Underwood started his system in 1945, and called it Combato/Defendo in 1950.
He moved to Canada and taught his art in Canada and the US and wrote several books.
His group used to teach at Camp X and have now developed this art/system into a full on Military and Police training group.

Again if we did not know Fairbairn's art was Defenfu,or we did not know of Mr Underwood,we would not know they teach WWII Combatives.
The name ,WWII Combatives ,is not used as the Main name of what these people or groups teach.
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Mick Coup

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2010, 03:02:06 AM »

To clarify, within the British military the slang term 'Jap Slapping' merely refers - in a semi-derogatory fashion - to anything that resembles an Eastern martial art.

Some individuals with a very tenuous grasp of things have tried to imply that it was something more than a nick-name, or even that it was an actual technique...not the case.

Just another way of saying 'that kratty stuff' and nothing more.

Mick

whitewolf

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Re: WW II Combatives off its Horse?
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2010, 05:57:10 AM »

Mick thanks   glad to read what you wrote-i always was little curious on the term-respectfully WW
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