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Author Topic: Knife Forward or Knife Back?  (Read 2583 times)

Joe Hubbard

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Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« on: September 25, 2004, 07:40:37 PM »

I’m sure this will start a “spit storm”, but here goes anyway.  What are your views on “knife forward” or “knife back”?  This is probably more controversial that the grabbing of the weapon-bearing limb issue.  Many systems are split on this for a variety of reasons…Let the games begin!

Ciao

Joe
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devil dog

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2004, 07:58:12 PM »

Hello Joe,

Admitttedly new to knife fighting, I have been fortunate to attend three courses ranging from military to private instruction, and in every one the message was the same.."situation will dictate the chaotic nerd dance.".

I see the knife wielding limb as the obvious higher threat, and like to keep the knife back and close to my side.  The recurring theme is to attack the wielding hand with focus and violence of action.

Is having the knife in front a target for the assailant?

DD
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Alex

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2004, 08:46:10 PM »

hey Joe!

I love the "spit-storm" :D comment!

Well, let's fob this notion off on everyone too:  Knife EDGE out or knife edge back when you draw?

Myself, i think the knife back provides protction and cover for the knif but takes longer to get to the target; knife forward: obviously quicker and closer to the targets.  Obviously, you'll transition between these two if you're really fighting.  maybe if you get in a blade back "stance" ;), the presentation will be enough to stop the continuation of the assault?

Blade Position:  I know journeyman/Tradesman dvd's indicate "teeth forward"(edge facing towards enemy); but to me, it makes no nevermind... a knife is a knife is knife...it'll cut, stab and slash wherever the hell it is.  Having to waste precious tactical seconds thinking about the edge coming out?  You can effect a good upwards tip-rip on a draw(fixed blade) too.
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Trembula

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2004, 10:09:44 PM »

This is a topic that has been rehashed a zillion and a half times, but my take on it...

When drawing the knife I like to be "knife back" for retention purposes regardless of whether the opponent is armed.

When training for the armed oppponent, the knife is typically "forward", for the unarmed opponent typically "back".

Being a proponent of the WWII USMC Biddle Method, I like having the "Edge Out" (palm down), particularly in the knife forward stance. I think this helps provide a bit of extra discouragement to the opponent since the cutting edge is already facing towards him and all I have to do is extend my arm, vice turn the hand over AND extend to attack/counter attack. From a biomechanics and minimization of wounds standpoint, it also helps with knife retention. Any cuts on my arm are more likely to be on the outside of my arm, vice the tender, juicy inside. Not that getting cut is a good idea, but I would rather take a cut on the stuff that makes my hand open up than a cut on the stuff that helps keep it closed (and hold onto a weapon).

Regarding Alex's question "Knife edge out or knife edge back when you draw"... I am not sure if you are talking about. Are you referring to a "Pikal" style reverse grip (edge in) or "reverse edge forward grip" ("upside down") grip vs. the "edge out" reverse grip (as advocated by Hock, Bram Frank, and others) or conventional sabre grip?

Dan
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Professor

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2004, 10:32:25 PM »

Point first.....the rest is a matter of the situation.


Trembula....don't forget "edge up saber....a nasty variation.



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« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 10:50:04 PM by De_professor »
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Trembula

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2004, 10:47:30 PM »

Jeff:

"Edge up Saber" is what I referred to as "reverse edge forward grip" ("upside down").

Dan
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Alex

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2004, 11:10:42 PM »

Regarding Alex's question "Knife edge out or knife edge back when you draw"... I am not sure if you are talking about. Are you referring to a "Pikal" style reverse grip (edge in) or "reverse edge forward grip" ("upside down") grip vs. the "edge out" reverse grip (as advocated by Hock, Bram Frank, and others) or conventional sabre grip

Dan:  yeah, pakal grip(edge in) vs. the SFC grip, edge(teeth) coming out at ya...
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2004, 11:38:45 PM »

Hi Dan

You mentioned you were a proponent of “The Biddle Method” (edge out/palm down).  Can you comment on the palm up (tight to your chest)/tip out that seems to be used in many photos of Applegate, Styers & Fairbairn?  When I trained with Vunak (years ago), he had me using this structure while long-range sparring to minimise getting your hand cut.  Although I transition between different structures, this has always worked well for me.  I am interested in this from a CQC military perspective.  Any thoughts?

Cheers

Joe
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Trembula

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2004, 08:12:14 AM »

Joe:

Check out my article on the Biddle method in CQC Magazine for some info on that system. To my knowledge Styers never used the grip you describe... the palm up/knife to the rear stance was used by Fairbairn/Applegate/Sykes. And as Hock has quoted Applegate as saying, the extremely well known picture of Applegate in that stance was "getting ready to stab you" (or somethign to that effect) and not intended to represent an actually fighting stance.

In a nutshell, Biddle was training Marines to win in weapon to weapon combat (vs. machetes and knives in Central America and bayonets, swords, and knives in the Pacific). Fairbairn and Sykes started out training cops and together during WW2 taught what were essentially "assasination" techniques to be used on an unarmed or unsuspecting opponent.

In a weapon on weapon engagement, particularly in the military, edged weapon context putting your empty hand out to get chopped/cut/smashed up isn't the smartest idea. How useful is the "good guy" if he kills the enemy but loses three or fingers in the process on his other hand? Plus, having the knife to the rear greatly telegraphs the attack.

What typically happens if someone is "knife forward" vs. "knife to the rear", is if the "forward" guy attacks, he aims to put steel on flesh, and the closest flesh is his opponent's empty (lead) arm. Bad guy instantly recoils, either from the pain (and perhaps shock of seeing some fingers disappear) or in an attempt to avoid the incoming cut, then reflexively stabs or slashes. Which because of the position of his arm, is somewhat limited along which angles it can move on. "Knife forward" guy grabs/parries the attack and nails the "knife to the rear" guy in the gut or neck.

With trainers this can get really slap happy, but if both participants take it seriously and envision real knives (and not tactical folders, but something a little larger, like the Marine Raider Bowie, current issue OKC-3S USMC Bayonet, large kitchen knife, Ka-Bar, etc), do you really want to take a cut on your empty hand that will leave that arm crippled, missing fingers, perhaps even a hand?

If the knife has a significant guard (i.e. something at least half an inch, preferably an inch or so) on both top and bottom, and is held in Biddle's "Flat Blade" grip, then the guard will actually protect the hand! (against some attacks) If the knife vertically (or palm up) like many hold it, then the guards do nothing or next to nothing to protect the hand.

Dan

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Trembula

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2004, 10:52:57 AM »

The extremely rare 1944 edition of "Do or Die" showing the Biddle Method as it was taught during WW2 is available for download here: http://www.get-tough.net/combat/manuals/Do_Or_Die.pdf Please take the time to send Mika an e-mail (mika@get-tough.net) and thank him for putting it on his site.

Dan
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2004, 09:37:24 PM »

Dan

Thanks for all the historical info, it's been a big help!  For those who want to read Dan's very informative article on "The Biddle Knife Tactics", you will find this in issue 18 of Close Quarter Combat.

Cheers

Joe
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Mr. Barnett

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2004, 12:02:48 AM »

Hey guys,  Interesting thoughts.  I don't get so technical when discussing the stances, as i feel that with the
Knife out, in hand, what exactly is a knife back, or knife forward stance?  Since when is a fight a stance?  maybe for about say...less than a microsecond.  Holding a knife in my right hand, it becomes a knife in the back or knife in the front hand simply by taking a step forward or back.  Generally, i think there is no such thing as a knife forward or back 'stance'.  When drawn, that thing better be working in conjunction with footwork to get the job done.
just my cent worth.
Gerald.
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szorn

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2004, 12:20:30 AM »

I’m sure this will start a “spit storm”, but here goes anyway.  What are your views on “knife forward” or “knife back”?  This is probably more controversial that the grabbing of the weapon-bearing limb issue.  Many systems are split on this for a variety of reasons…Let the games begin!

Ciao

Joe


Neither one. I believe that the altercation will determine the body positioning for us. Under the stress of a chaotic assault there will be little time to assume a "stance". In fact, assuming any kind of semi-static stance can actually be detrimental to our survival. We need to be able to adapt to any situation with ease, and this can only be done while maintaining flexibility in our tactics.


Steve
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TAC

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Re: Knife Forward or Knife Back?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2004, 04:28:01 AM »

After doing killshot I've learned that both stances tend to just 'happen' during the chaos, even if you start off in 'knife-forward' when the whistle blows.
But personaly, I'm not so much interested in protecting the knife as much as the knife protecting me. And in order for that to happen, I think it needs to be between me and the other guy.
I gained more faith in this idea after I read about the 'elusive lead' in Bruce's Tao of Jeet Kune Do. If you read that and basicly just imagine a knife being in that lead hand, it all seems to make good sense.

Sharif

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