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[Hock]

For a few months back now, and now more in the last month and a half or so I have been hearing that the "new breed" of Krav people imported from Israeli...many living now in Canada...some in California...

They have gradually been increasing their prices, mismanaging their collections methods, running crazy and changing ways to run their instructors...and in general, I have been told...screwing the new people that have turned to them.

Despite original promises, people have been charged thousands and thousands of dollars to get or retain their instructorships, run seminars, etc, in haphazard new approaches, many made up on the fly. Specificaly, Moni, Ari and these Kapap group I am told.

People turning from Los Angeles Krav to them, are discovering that these people may actually be worse alternatives to deal with. Nice guys...but impossible to work with and maintain any kind of a consistant business relationship.

In my semi-educated opnion on this? I think these newer people arrived over here thinking there would become semi-millionaires, thanks to the ground work laid by LA Krav. But the harsh realities are they will not become rich. And they are now hustling for bucks they expected. These new arrivals have to look and see that even Darren Lavene has to keep his day job at the DA s office, and being a Krav Maga vet does not turn you into a rock star.

Randy Couture still "wants to a rock star..."

Anyway, "new" seekers of Krav alternatives? I think...beware.

Hock

[Ryan]

This was inevitable, I'm afraid.  It's the old bait and switch (intentional or not, they made promises they couldn't possibly keep and remain in business.) 

Say what you will about KMW, but they've accomplished something that is rare in our industry (from an organization and business standpoint), and it didn't come easily.  I think others hoping to ride on those coattails are finding out that it took tremendous work, and those that jumped ship are finding out the grass isn't always greener.

At the end of the day, get everything in writing, understand what you are signing, ask questions, make sure you can live with the answers, then put out the best product YOU can.  In most cases, your students won't care about the initials, but they will care about what YOU are able to do for them (which may depend, to some degree, on what your affiliations are able to do for you.)

All the best!

[kamagong]

Several years back, before I had gotten involved with Hock, I had contacted the LA group to find out more about them and their organization.  After talking to them several times on the phone, and receiving a demo package from them the inevitable liscensing fee bomb was dropped on me.  That alone spoke volumes about who I was dealing with.  We now have a couple of Krav instructors in this area, and I am not sure how they are making it financially.  I have spoken briefely to one of them, and he has another school where he primarily teaches kids and I think that is how he is keeping his doors open.  It just looks too much like a McDonald's approach to Martial Arts Training.  I'm glad I did my homework and got involved with Hock and the folks here. 

[mleone]

With these Mcdonald like franchises, you get alot of help and advice. How ever it also is a price tag of control. You are often enough paying for the advice.

Hock just lets us keep what we make and operate independantly.
Thats are plus for being involved.

LA Krav Im sure has their reasons, and there are some people that would probably benefit from it or enjoy it.

Its not for me, but for some who are into the mcdonalds thing. They may have a big enough student base to help cover expenses.

But when you have a financial blood letting, your going to cut your losses or hit the ground running. I dont think any instructor wants to be the little dutch boy with his finger in the dike.
Stopping all the financial loss.

[JimH]

Moni Aizik's Combat survival is $1995 for  instructor training and certification in two levels of his system.(2.5 days)
There are no further costs to pay him,no yearly fees,nor any requirement to sell his products.
If you choose to sell his products you can do so and he gives instructors a substantial discunt to sell to their students of anyone interested.
There are also no pre Instructor testing requiremenst,like having a school with X number of existing students before approval as an Instructor/salesman.

[WTAC]

What about franchising fees? Can you teach anywhere you want? Or do you have buy your area?
Aaron

Moni Aizik's Combat survival is $1995 for  instructor training and certification in two levels of his system.(2.5 days)
There are no further costs to pay him,no yearly fees,nor any requirement to sell his products.
If you choose to sell his products you can do so and he gives instructors a substantial discunt to sell to their students of anyone interested.
There are also no pre Instructor testing requiremenst,like having a school with X number of existing students before approval as an Instructor/salesman.

[lakerssportsfan]

Moni Aizik's Combat survival is $1995 for  instructor training and certification in two levels of his system.(2.5 days)

I would not think that 2.5 days is enough training for an instructor no matter what amount of previous training he had.

[Bryan Lee]

  Does anyone know how to say "Pyramid Scheme" in Hebrew?


  Currently we have "Tactical Krav Maga" here in Thailand based out of Australia. I have never met any of the people but see them advertising all over the internet. They are located in Pattaya which is where most belligerent types of tourists hang out, think of Vegas, switch the gambling with hookers and there you have the scene. 3 beers and a date for twenty bucks but the Krav seems pretty expensive from what Ive seen advertised.

  The guy running it seems very polite and I have no comment about him personally but I don't much care for the whole KM scene having viewed much of their materials. They basically charge big bucks to teach you how to kick someone in the nuts and poke them in the eye, things most of us learned on the playground in grade school.

[JimH]

With Moni Aizik's Combat Survival there is NO Franchise Fee and you are not told where you can or cannot teach the materials.
You become a certified Instructor and teach or Do not teach as you want.

2-2.5 days to get two phase qualified,not Black Belt or master Level qualified.
(This allows one to begin to form a group,teach,make money and hopefully continue to advance in the system,Not Unlike the way Hock and others allow)

Each two phases build upon the last,but the materials are not rocket sience and the training and instruction are fast paced,hard and reenforced through out the days,with the end of each day being a randori type exercise where you stand in the middle and are attacked  quickly by the others over and over in any and all materials covered in the two phase training.

It is Immersion,Doing and performing from the start ,not just instruction with little hands on,it teaches Immediate action/reaction drills.

Some sayit is alot of money.
I Paid 4000 dollars and invested 3.5 years to get my black Belt and in those years I earned and made nothing from my training.
I have invested 12 years and over 12,000 dollars to get my 4th degree.

Moni,Hock and others have a way ,through level or phases of instruction that allow people to make money teaching useful material and hopefully staying on and becoming Black Belt level instructors over the years.
(As of Now Moni has a 10 Phase system,you learn two phases at each instructor school,so the cost of the full system over time will be under 10,000 dollars,and require approx. 5 years of training and teaching  to be a fully qualified Instructor)


KAPAP:
$1250 gets you 50 hours of Level one training and at the end Certification.
I do not think Arvi has Franchise fees either,but I am not positive of this.

[Ryan]

It's funny that you would throw out the "saleman" comment, but then don't seem to mind that with Avi's program, at least, you are simply buying a certification.  Pay your money, show up, get your certificate.  Also, according to the site, in five days you'll cover:

Topics will be presented during this course:

History of Kapap and Israeli Martial Arts and CQB
Training methods for extreme combat fitness
Stances, movement, strikes and kicks
Releases from holds
Gun disarms
Knife disarms and attacks
Stick fighting
Restraining or (Arresting techniques)
Basic grappling
Basic Gun tactical movement
*Anatomy and physiology


Cost: $1250.00
5 Days Training (50 Hours)
Includes: certificate
T-shirt
Course Manual
Course CD

Everyone wants to knock KMW, but the truth is, 30% don't pass the first phase, which is seven days.

[Hock]

Apparently they are playing a bit fancy free once your are "on the in."

One of the aforementioned people (not LA Krav) quoted a set seminar fee, then once in place and actually doing the seminar, squeezed another $1,000 out of the host.

Another of the aforementioned, quoted some outlandish re-certification fee in the thousands, needing some sudden, surprise "carry-on fees.

A few other guys have connected with other leser known Israeli types and the money fees have been fast, on the fly and changing...

Hock 

P.S.s...

(My basic instructor level in the unarmed combat course is equivilent to like a green belt in "katate and jujitsu." Not too much prestige. But, all of them may have years and years experience in other things. I certify about...oohhh 5 to 10 new basic instructors (level 3) a year, after seeing about 1,000-plus people a year. Usually they toil away getting one rank at a time...about 14 or 16 hours a level. They usually have about 40 or 50 hours with me at this point. 3 levels = $150. Basic Instructorship = $100. (also almost all of these guys have toiled away in regular, weekly SFC classes! With previously-made SFC instructors. I get an approval nod from these vets too. But their regular attendence in those regional classes? I can't really quote those hours.

So most of basic instructor guys have
-many hours with me in person..
-many hours with a local instructor...
-many hours of other experience...
-I REALLY rely on the local instructor's OK.


Hand, Stick, Kinfe, Gun CCQ GROUP Basic Instructor? ---ohhh maybe 150 hours with me. Hours wioth others. Then to actually get a instructor CQC Group rank, mandatory attendence at 4 day CQC camp on top of that (another 40 hours with me atop that.) Camp fee/40 hours $400. ) The hand, stick, knife and gun CQC Group instructorships are free.  

There has never been an iota of a guarentee of getting any instructorships with me. Seminars are called "instructor development" and a person gets what they get at the end of the seminars.

(And it sounds like I am missing the "big money boat," big time!)

[Ryan]

Hock, what you are doing sounds quite reasonable to me. 

With KMW, after the first 7 days, and with your passage, you are certified to teach yellow belt/level 1 material, which is basic footwork, combatives, and basic self defense--that's it.

[Hock]

Topics will be presented during this Avi 50 hour instructor course:

History of Kapap and Israeli Martial Arts and CQB
Training methods for extreme combat fitness
Stances, movement, strikes and kicks
Releases from holds
Gun disarms
Knife disarms and attacks
Stick fighting
Restraining or (Arresting techniques)
Basic grappling
Basic Gun tactical movement
*Anatomy and physiology


Whew!...just dusting over all that with me in a preliminary manner, in my programs? Is thereabouts to 300 to 500 hours I would guess. I don't know - maybe if he showed only one tactic per topic? To cover it really good? A whole lot of hours. I think 50 hours of hand, 50 of stick, 50 of knife, 50 of gun is more like it. But you don't turn the fast buck that way.


Hock

[Hock]

And I think one of the confusing things in all these hourly breakdowns is...the mixed weapons?

You are going to get a good, working functionality on the giant topic of stick fighting INSIDE a 50 hour gig including hand, stick, knife and gun?

The only way I can juggle this teaching aproach is separating out the hand, stick, knife and gun topics in fifferent prorgams.  I could possible live with 50 hours of unarmed combatives VERSUS hand, stick, knife and gun...maybe work on essential moves that apply to fighting against the cross categories? But when we put it all in 50 hours?

Whew!
Hock

[juszczec]

FWIW

I looked in to joining a different org early in 2007. 

I went with Hock for alot of reasons, not just price.  But I'd be lying to y'all if I didn't say price was a big factor.

In addition, his fees indicate (at least to me) he's more interested in getting his information out as opposed to anything else.  That is all I'm trying to accomplish as an instructor.  Give the know how to people who need it and provide them what they need to practice.