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[Brian S]

If you cut and paste the link in the search box it will run.

Yes Damian is in the background as are about 20-30 other people as it was a seminar for the O'Neil and Fairbarn materials that became two of Carl's videos.
It was filmed in what 2002 or before ?
Ross was a student of Carl's so one would expect him to be there.

I do not think that it was Wolf Pack only members that attended the seminar.

I think one of the Attendees is Mika Soderman who many know from many of the combatives forums around ,he is not in the Wolf Pack yet is in the video.
(he can tell you if it was Wolf Pack Only as well as when the seminar was held)

Nope. wasn't only Wolf Pack members.  But Damian Ross was as much a part of the Wolf Pack as any of them.  They trained at his Dojo, and he circulated Carl's DVDs with Carls blessing, at least originally.

I'm fine with him being kicked out of it.  I couldn't care less!  But re-writing history is not something we should get into.

[Hock]

Here's a question.

Some veteran martial artists I know were talking with me the other day. They said one of them saw a Damian Ross DVD and saw him do a Cestari-based, or WW II-based pistol...well, its not a disarm, not a counter...well, I'll try to decribe it.

1) Bad guy with pistol in a two-handed grip.
2) Bad guy has pistol near Ross's face.
3) Ross "claps" the pistol with both his hands. Seems to shove the gun upwards a bit.
4) Ross turns and runs away...in a mandatory "zig-zag" pattern, I guess expecting
    the bad guy to shoot at his escape

My friends report it looked worthless and stupid. They were morified.

I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS FILM. So I ask...is this a good description? Is this one thing from WW II Combatives? Is this something that Ross teaches? That Cestari taught?

Hock

[JimH]

That sounds like a stupid thing to do,to me anyway.

I have not seen this running away on any of Carl Cestari tapes.

I have not seen such a technique in any of the WWII combat H2H materials I have.

I do not think that this is a WWII technique as those techniques were created for a battlefield.
Battlefield H2H was either a surprise encounter or you ran out of rounds.
Battlefield techniques such as WWII techniques were developed to terminate/,eliminate the opponent so running would not have been part of a solution.
Once the two hands were on the weapon,one would step off line and turn the weapon back towards the opponent and get a disarm.

I imagine that if the technique is done as explained then this is a Ross creation for the street over something he was taught.

Here is a clip of Ross doing a few disarms the last being a pistol to the head and he does the technique as it was meant to be done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic55tY6cUS4&feature=related

[MikeT]

(This MikeT was later discovered to actually be Damian Ross pretending to be a fan - Hock)


Hi,

I posted about my thoughts on Mr. Ross's program and I'm a little confused. I signed on this morning and I can't find it, am I missing something?

Mike

[Hock]

Subject split at "Hip throw in self defense" the real subject matter for more half of that thread, not (Cestari and WW II) and all this great SD info was unread at the bottom of another subject title. The Hip Throw in self deffense was full of great debate in the subject and was lost under a thread with the wrong title. Read more about all these people, teaching seld defense and showing hip throws here: http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php?topic=4931.0

But, under this Cestari title, Mike T, in review you said you liked the Damian's course and did not get the "gossip and BS." (I know very-little-to-nothing of these New Jersey people,) but the entries were from the old-timers who knew the groups, respected Carl and knew him and these people and these backgrounds were important to them.

Sounds gossipy and BS. but to them this history was important.  (Plus  - I think people need to know what a fraud this masked LT. X / "Capt. Mike Pizzo -McShizzo" is.)

So, at least somewhere a little bit of this history is searchable fo buffs. So keep on doing what you are doing and having some fun up there on the Cape. Its important to keep doing something.

Hock
I guess all talk forums in the end are kinda "poker table" and "loading table" gossip and BS, huh? For the great unwashed, ye old loading table is where the troops get together, smoke, joke and load magazines for a mission/raid/assignment. I guess that would make a great name for a talk forum huh? But then again, it would be confusing for non-military, non-police folks.

[MikeT]

(This MikeT was later discovered to actually be Damian Ross pretending to be a fan - Hock)


Thanks Hock, I appreciate that. I'm not real savvy at this forum stuff. After doing a little more digging, most of the negative press has been on b**shid* and if you ask me are run by teenager MMA fans.

That being said, most of the information posted here comes from that thread. Other than this site, I couldn't find much, so I contacted Mr. Ross directly. Which is interesting because no one has even bothered to contact the man regarding the situation. All I had to do was PM him and he responded.

The best I can tell is that ltx was a student of Mr. Ross and came to hm with a green belt in judo. He trained under him for about 3 years. the lt had only distribution rights and handled the marketing end of the product.

In October 2007 they parted ways. As for lt's military record, he has no idea. He has never even watched any of ltx's videos. Even the ones that were shot in his dojo without M. Ross's knowledge.

That's about it. Anything else he couldn't comment on due to legal issues with now "captain chris". Who yes, shocked me with his "field promotion."

All I can simply say is that Mr. Ross's training system hits the spot. That's all. Most of the people commenting about his skills are only commenting on his participation in videos with Carl.

I would be interested to see if anyone has seen ANY modules of the training system, let alone actually tried it.

With regards to the hip throw, that's not Mr. Ross, it may be the captain. I'm not an expert on the situation, I simply contacted the other side of the story.

Thank you again, the info on your forum is invaluable.

Mike

[Hock]

Damion is already a registered member of this forum.
But anyway keep on keeping on and doing what you are doing. And have fun!

Hock
(Its just damn fun to yak about Pizzo/LT X.    WHAT a circus act!)

[MikeT]

Hock, which video is that for the Gun disarm?

[Hock]

The hand clap on the gun, the push it up and run away thing?
 
I personally have never seen it, that is why I was asking about it here. I just had a group in Houston all SWEAR they did see it. Insisted. I said, "NAHHH! No way!" They insisted. The movement is so outlandish I had to ask here about it because I just couldn't believe it anybody would do it and wanted to know if anyone had seen it anywhere, by anybody.

But then, honestly I have seen some WW II films and people did do some VERY stupid shit in them. Like, not monitering handguns and knives while close up at times, and it kind of has the ugly hint/ring of a smattering of these 1940s ideas I've seen there as well as, even  some American-style combatives mistakes I have seen, made as late as the 1980s.

It seems that everyone has had to evolve and improve on some of the WW II material, but hate admitting to it? Like it is sacreligious or something?   

Hock   

[MikeT]

(This MikeT was later discovered to actually be Damian Ross pretending to be a fan - Hock)


I understand, so what you are saying is that you never saw the video, you only heard of some guys in Houston "swear" they did see it.

And in your previous post you say that it was Mr. Ross who did the technique, yet you never saw the video you are only taking the word of some guys in Houston?

Hock, with all due respect, given your expert opinion and the high regard you are given as an authority in this field, don't you think you may want to look into these types of matters a little deeper before you post?

I was hoping for a little more.

This is why I can't take what I read on the net too seriously.

[Mick Coup]

I just watched the clip shown on this thread and personally did not consider it worth much at all - especially the gun disarm.

Rather than be impressed with the cool moves of the demonstrator, I initially focus my attention on the actions of the adversary, before, during and after the 'magic' happens.

In this case, as in many just like it, there was a distinct absence of any realistic behaviour, and therefore it's about as valid as a bad movie fight.

Throwing a single punch and standing still for a bunch of weak strikes and a bad throw - unlikely.

Letting someone grab your knife arm and doing nothing further to either free it or continue to attack with everything else - unlikely.

Standing watching someone grab your gun and not even point it back at you - unlikely.

The only valid material on the clip is the finger wrench!  This I know from having used it more times than I can remember...

The 'Hollywood' fixation of taking a gun from an active adversary and using it on him is pretty much nonesense - unless they just stand there doing nothing while you a. remove it from their firm grip, b. reposition it in your own firm grip, and c. make sure you didn't induce a stoppage in the process.  All this at bad-breath range from a man who was initially commited enough to use a firearm apparently!

Mick

[Hock]

"Hock, with all due respect, given your expert opinion and the high regard you are given as an authority in this field, don't you think you may want to look into these types of matters a little deeper before you post?" I was hoping for a little more.
- Mike T

Thats a nice line, but you know its quite corny and not very original and, as all know reading it...meant as an underhanded insult. NOOOoo PROBLEM, though. Believe me. After you have been shot at? Petty little shit like that is nothing to me. In fact, you are actually more than completely okay in my book just for trying. (but I do expect a little more from you than that stale line)

First, for the record, in general, I am not in this for anybody's respect. Don't want it. Don't need it. Don't deserve it. I am just a guy with trick moves. Period. None of this is about me, just the trick moves. People should want the tricks. I wish people would never call me sir or...(my real point here) open statements with that infamous "due respect" lead-in (Right before Bill O' Reily PLOWS into someone, he always starts the plowing with - "with all due respect, sir...") People should just cut that phrase out and get to the meat.

Dig a bit deeper before opening one's mouth? Before you start admonishing me with underhanded, talk-down remarks, perhaps it is YOU who should dig a little deeper and see exactly what I said.
Here's the original post, copied here, of which you speak, from several pages back. (note the question marks)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here's a question.

Some veteran martial artists I know were talking with me the other day. They said one of them saw a Damian Ross DVD and saw him do a Cestari-based, or WW II-based pistol...well, its not a disarm, not a counter...well, I'll try to decribe it.

1) Bad guy with pistol in a two-handed grip.
2) Bad guy has pistol near Ross's face.
3) Ross "claps" the pistol with both his hands. Seems to shove the gun upwards a bit.
4) Ross turns and runs away...in a mandatory "zig-zag" pattern, I guess expecting
    the bad guy to shoot at his escape

My friends report it looked worthless and stupid. They were mortified.

I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS FILM. So I ask...is this a good description? Is this one thing from WW II Combatives? Is this something that Ross teaches? That Cestari taught?

Hock


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think it was pretty clear that I didn't see the video from the get-go. Thats a tip to readers that...well... I DIDN"T SEE THE FILM! (See the capalized words) That sort of sets the stage for the readers? Sort of "Hock doesn't know because he said in capital letters he hasn't seen the film?"  Also, never mind that Ross taught it? Did Cestari teach that? Anyone teach it? Anybody see it anywhere? MikeT, did ya' see the question marks?

You see, THIS is one way that I do the "deeper digging" that you refer to. I ask around. Thus the question marks. I asked the WW II experts from the USA, Canada to England, right here on this forum.  I venture to say that there are 30 to 50 of them that frequent here off and on. I am not going to send 50 emails out to them individually. This is not TIME magazine here. It is whatcha' call...a talk forum. Where people...you know...talk. THIS is how I reach them to look for answers. Plus, new people who might know something. I repeat that line ...

            Did you perhaps see all the question marks in my original post?


I dig deep to make statements or proclamations, not ask questions. That is the digging part. Pretty sure that the ones who have answered here said have never seen this done by anyone. Since Ross is signed on the forum here (afterwards by the way)? A friendly and simple...

        "Hi Hock and everyone... read this...hey...jeez Hock, that WAS a crazy move
         and I've never seen it or done that."

...would be just fine. More than fine. Welcoming. An answer to a question.

I know these guys in Houston a long time, one since the 1990s. This was at a seminar. Not like a chance meeting of strangers at a coffee shop.  I would guess I know them probably longer than you know your new buddy Ross.  Actually, I was hoping for a little more from you. Have you seen every film Ross has ever made before the DVD set you bought? Are there any? You see, I just don't know.

I sometimes have to go on other talk forums and clear up weird stuff about me. Or, most times I don't care to, you know? it depends. Because they are just talk forums and some are small and weird. Some people may think this one is small and weird. Fine with me. Then its a hassle to join these other forums.

If Ross did answer this, came on about it, said Hi to everyone. He then might be bothered by the others here with negative comments or barrages of lineage questions? Yuck! Huh! BS and gossip!  (Were there any negative comments about him? I have forgotten. We got so side-tracked on the hip throw for about 5 full pages)

But, it just might not be worth getting on any forum for a host of reasons. Time maybe?  I don't know. He might instead steer someone to do it for him, "punk him out" so to speak. That happens a lot too. Dodge the tough questions and try to answer the solo one with a front guy as a mouthpiece?   

"This is why I can't take what I read on the net too seriously." -MikeT

Who does? Really! Who? I don't. Especially on talk forums where people...talk. You have to ask around a bit. A classic place to ask around is...like...on some talk forums? But, only after a preponderance of evidence from several sources can conclusions be made. Don't know until you ask, huh?

But before you start admonishing me with underhanded, talk-down remarks, perhaps it is YOU who should dig a little deeper and see exactly what I did said, and exactly what I did ask.

But with all due respect, MikeT (just joshing with ya!) back on the real point. I repeat again, keep doing what you are doing up there "on the cape" and have some fun and learn something. Get good exercise.

Hock

[Hock]

Mick, you are talking about the biggest, flaw in common, handgun disarming training. I agree completely.

All of these confrontations are fluid, situation and in some kind of motion, if even the slightest motion-like the lookaway of the eyes, big or little turns of the head and the single and double arms grips. The extended contracting arms!

There is a set and series to all of this. I am still working on this very thing right now trying to improve and refine my outline and explain myself fully. I just did four hours on it last Saturday in Denver. Watching, watching and watching,

Hock

[MikeT]

(This MikeT was later discovered to actually be Damian Ross pretending to be a fan - Hock)


My point was simple. You didn't see it and I was hoping to locate the videos themselves through anyone's help.

"My new buddy". I train in the guy's program and I like it. I post my opinion and am attacked for it. I question a source and I still receive hear say and I 4 page response.

BTW, the posts on youtube are not what is shown in the Training system. I don't know what is up there.

Now you've got me sucked into and argument.

Has anyone even seen a training module?
Has anyone trained with Damian Ross
Has anyone done any more research than Bull*hido?
Has anyone seen any more video that what is on youtube?

I asked these questions looking for answers.

30 second snippets are just that, taken out of context. But that is all I see is talked about.

Like I said, the youtube clips, I don't know wht's going on there, But in module 8, weapons defense- it really in a no BS system.

BTW, did the guys in Houston tell you what DVD it was? From Carl or Damian? OR did you just not bother to ask since it fit your agenda.

Mike

[Mick Coup]

Mike,

Taking the time to upload video footage on Youtube is a deliberate act, especially with slow-motion effects and soundtrack added.

With this being the case, why go to the trouble of showcasing material that isn't what you really teach?  I'd submit that each and every person who does it is more than happy with what is presented - until it gets less than favourable reviews and then suddenly it's all 'out of context' and not what they really do in training at all...

I have a few clips on Youtube, and I carefully selected them from the limited footage that I have available - some footage I didn't upload because it would be taken out of context - you had to be there - so I avoided this issue from the start.

All 'theselfdefenseco' footage available is titled and numbered 'close combat 4' or whatever - seems like a bunch of lessons to me, maybe not what you are currently studying perhaps, but certainly a programme for someone.

Now I'm not going on anyone's hearsay when I say that it doesn't impress, I watched the clips and got my own impression from them.

If you insist that I have to study more to make a more informed opinion, that's fine - but as usual in cases like this I would put money on no-one asking the same of someone saying great things instead, seeing as praise tends to be accepted regardless of how limited the exposure is, or how experienced the viewer is.

Bottom line, if you're happy with the material that's great - opinions vary and going by what I've seen I don't rate it.

Mick