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[theardri]

Bryan this WAY off topic, however (a) I was dressed in a silk shirt and waistcoat, from a Neopagan ritual I ran. I post(ed) on Vampirefreaks. Nothing sexual, nor trying to hookup. Grasso however decided to make a fuss.

Back on topic:

The Wolfpac back as recently as 2002 PRAISED Geoff Todd (I was training with him then). Sometime between Charles Nelsons Passing and my hitting the internet in the USA (late 2004) he was public enemy number 2 (after the lt.X crew).

No where is it written what the wolfpac assert Geoff has said, it’s all second and third hand.

Geoff has only ever said “be careful of who you train with in the USA as they often will use personal attacks to seem superior”. Hock never has, Dimitiri never has, The Wolfpac has, and I’ve never posted on American Combatives.

On Bullshido. There was a nice little “circle jerk” going on how great Cestari was (and yeah he was good from what I’ve seen, not spectacular, but good, but as we all agree the Video production quality sucked, but given they were late 1980’s home video material in the “Dungeon” (a basement) what do you expect, and they were really prototypes that never got improved). Someone bad mouthed James Webb. One of the nicest guys I’ve met. Geoff had published the story of how Cestari and he knew each other, and had supporting documents (its’ on the fight times site). This apparently annoyed the Wolfpac. Long story short, someone found the documents and pictures were legitimate from a neutral source, and Grasso launched his attacks on me, about the same time a fake “personals” advert in a BDSM site (not the goth site which had my picture and was real and again is NOT a sexual site) appeared, and was “discovered”.

Now for the personal statements

(a)   I have never Met Carl Cestari
(b)   I am a Phase ONE student of the Todd Group. I am currently in trouble for arguing with Grasso, as Geoff ignores him. I only argue on personal attacks on me, but the groups attitude is let the old wanker sink himself, he did so by almost getting banned off Bullshido for libel (he left when Samuel Browing mentioned that he had crossed the line, then slunk back in all polite (even to me) a week later).
(c)   I am a very active member of the Neopagan community; this makes me very unpopular with many(*cough* grasso *cough*). Tough, my faith is just that mine. Dimitiri, and Suarez and I manage to have civil conversations, thus what does this tell you
(d)   I at no time have made myself out to be an expert in Combatives. I wish to learn. This is why I am here, and other groups (Pax Baculum, Senshido, Seld Defence.com). I am however highly educated (though mildly dyslexic) and have the skills to research.
(e)   Bryan if you look carefully I have posted in this tread since the third post. Thus shake what tree/bush?
(f)   I am a prickly individual who is usually sleep deprived, caffeinated and working ridiculous hours, so my sense of humor is often

If you have issue with me, PM me or email me (I believe you can do that from this site) and we can have a ncie littleflame war out of other peoples bandwidth. If however you are just yanking my chain druid do bhéal

Sorry to bring Drama.

(long quotes from prior posts removed) 

[theardri]

Hock,

If it helps, your name was mentioned by Geoff and Ron Evans (he's in the UK) as someone to seek out over here. I don't think the whole WW2 combatives community bought the smear campaign, just a part of it. The fact you have an OPEN forum that does not go "Stealth" like the Battlefield says a lot about your audience.


(Long Hock quote removed to save space)

[Benjamin Liu]

I don't know anyone in the WWII Combatives community personally, and only know a few from posts on various forums, especially Self-Defense Forums.  I'm not for or against any of the instructors and am not taking any sides.

My question is regarding people who trained with these groups being either qualified or not qualified to teach.  My understanding of WWII Combatives is that they were designed to be easy to learn so that soldiers could be ready to fight in a short time, and it also didn't take that long to train the instructors who would then train the soldiers.

Considering this, shouldn't anyone who as trained under someone like Cestari for a year be more than qualified to teach compared to the original instructors in WWII, assuming they trained hard in class?  I'm not saying that any of the people mentioned as not qualified are any good or not since I've never seen them on person or video.

[Milldog1776]

My question is regarding people who trained with these groups being either qualified or not qualified to teach.  My understanding of WWII Combatives is that they were designed to be easy to learn so that soldiers could be ready to fight in a short time, and it also didn't take that long to train the instructors who would then train the soldiers.

Considering this, shouldn't anyone who as trained under someone like Cestari for a year be more than qualified to teach compared to the original instructors in WWII, assuming they trained hard in class?  I'm not saying that any of the people mentioned as not qualified are any good or not since I've never seen them on person or video.

HAHA! You know...that makes enough sense to be true! 

Very perceptive! You get a cookie! 

[Bri Thai]

I do find it laughable that Ralph Grasso can be portrayed as some kind of victim of a flame campaign - he has slagged more people off than I have - surely a record!   

As for Carl appearing on Black Belts "Top Ten" best fighters/most dangerous men?

That list was put together by Lito Angelese.  He is an RBSD practitioner based in California.  He has a friendship with the BB owners and does contribute to the magazine.  I used to be quite friendly with him, and he told me that the list was more tongue in cheek than anything, and he used it to get some exposure for some of his friends also.

But, on another conversaton about Carl Cestari?  Lito told me that the validity of some of Carl's credentials was doubted.  He also said that he went to see the "Wof Pack" (grrrr grrrrr) some years ago, and that they spent their time kissing his ass to try and get into BB magazine, which they then did.

Hey!  Sorry Lito!  But you did tell a certain guy lots of half truths and lies about my view of him last year.  At least what I am saying is the actual truth.... if you remember what that actually means.   

[theardri]

But, on another conversaton about Carl Cestari?  Lito told me that the validity of some of Carl's credentials was doubted.  He also said that he went to see the "Wof Pack" (grrrr grrrrr) some years ago, and that they spent their time kissing his ass to try and get into BB magazine, which they then did.

Are you talking about the notorious "special ops" claims? Or just some of his rankings listed?

I'll be honest I've only ever bought ONE BB magazine, and that was the one that had an article on the shredder. When I go into a B&N or Boarders, I usually avoid the "martial arts" magazines and go for things like Military History, at least I will enjoy reading those.

[Bri Thai]

It was all about his martial arts gradings.  Some of it did ring true to me.  For exmple, the grade in "WJJF Ju Jitsu" is not somtthing I would shout about at the best of times.  I trained in one of their clubs for a year, and it was all what I call "Set Piece Statue,"  meaning that the "attacker" steps forwards with a highly telegraphed move, and then he stands still whilst the heroic defender does all kinds of implausible locks and throws.  The grond work involved telling us to roll around with each other, with no actual tuition in technique whatsoever.

Also there was a martial arts expose show on in the UK some years ago.  One guy went to Japan to train with the supposed head honcho of the system.  Turns out that the afore mentioned honcho had not heard of the WJJF, let alone led it.  Also the UK heads (Robert Clarke and a guy called Morris, I never can remember his first name) then allegedly ran off with the monies, leading to a police investigation.

Now we cannot hold Carl responsible for that, but it is a sad reflection on the validity of the grade.  Like I say, not a grade I would shout about.

He also used to claim a high grade in "Shito-Ryu Shukokai" or something under Shigeru Kimura.  I was a student under a 1st generation instructor of Kimura's for five years.  The impact generation training was good (using those foam pads now adopted by Peter Consterdine, another ex Shukokai man), the rest of it was shallow Kata and flicky kicky semi contact.  There was no reference to Shito Ryu at all.  I know that Shukokai was a derivative of it, but to mention it seems like an attempt to "sex up" training that was, in actual fact, almost 90% sport training.

I hafve little interst in the Wolf Pack, including past or present members.  I view them as guys with big egos, big bellies and big mouths.

I know nothing of the "notorious" special ops claims.  Please fill me in!

[theardri]

Ok it was the large number of belts claimed then ...

Back in the 1990's they tried to sell him as an "ex special ops" guy (sort of like the dastardly Lt.X) But it was challenged by some real ex special ops guys and all evidence has vanished, beyond some very dog eared printouts I guess it was in the era of be more than you are? No one really made too much of a fuss given that Pizzo and Ross were involved (and we all know where this lead ...)

[Bri Thai]

Well, I suppose he had been "away" for a while.

[theardri]

*cleans screen*

Thanks

No comment, I am just amazed that one groups Idol can do things another groups idol gets slammed for But that is the problem, I don't idolize Tank, I reserve that for Musicians. Every one has flaws, indeed some of the best have the most flaws.

EDIT: I I should add the current argument is that his time "away" made him tougher than any military guy could be, being an "ex cop" in the slammer and all.

No comment.

[whitewolf]

As Grlaun stated-did we learn anything here?-I dont think so except to say Combatives Combatives Combatives -this is 2008-lets stay focused gemtlemen-we want to come home after a hard days/nights work -in one piece-semper fi whitewolf (el lobo blanco)

[Bryan Lee]

  Sure there are things to be learned here, after all this is the history of what we do. Nobody on this forum can be involved with any Combatives and not be interested in this as a subject matter. The problem lay in that certain figures raise homemade flags higher than the Stars and Stripes, then they are surprised when they get called on it.


  Im well aware of the fake military credential thing since I myself have had a group of idiots go on a rant about my background saying I have made false claims, all accusations in the end proved to be pure bullshit. It is a fact that Cestari was never in the Army nor ever any kind of government agent, for that matter as a convicted felon he would have had very limited access to firearms by law and no legitimate police agency would have been sending him students although I guess some went to him on their own time for martial arts training. If he ever did make any military claims I would like to see it. It is well documented the shooting accident or whatever it was that happened to send him to prison happened the night of his going away party and he never made it to Basic Training.

  I do not wish to go on a witch hunt but if he did make claims that proved untrue there is no reason to withhold such information. Because he has passed on though anything presented as evidence must be held to a higher standard than a bunch of he said she said out of context ramblings. Anything printed in Black Belt Magazine during that time period though would be sufficient evidence, since the information would have come from him and he could have disputed it at the time of publication.

  While I have no doubt that he was a dangerous man capable of training other men to be dangerous he is one of many and in the grand scheme of combatives seems to have played a very small role outside of a small group of friends. 

[theardri]

Other than airing some laundry - did we accomplish anything here?

Nope. Zilch, nada, total waste of time.

It depends. If someone did not know the history, they learned a great deal. If they did (like I hope MOST of us did), it was a waste of bandwidth, and apparently an chance to question peoples right to teach? *shrug* Like the Special Operations thread I am sure the progenitor has a reason for posting this, it escapes me. Just like the reason for posting my presence in other forums…

[Hock]

"Sure there are things to be learned here, after all this is the history of what we do. Nobody on this forum can be involved with any Combatives and not be interested in this as a subject matter. The problem lay in that certain figures raise homemade flags higher than the Stars and Stripes, then they are surprised when they get called on it."


Well, these topics are updated pieces of history that can be researched on. I really don't mind them being discussed at all, and passed around as general knowledge. For one example, I had always heard that this unfortunate shooting incident occured in a training class, and a student was shot. Now we know, Carl was not careless in a class accident.

With these pimple-like outbursts of post-Carl people popping on the scene, it might be informative to have this information about the head guy on the scene and fresh somewhere accessable to read.

And, this thread has caused JimH, for example to write many lines of defined, informative history and information. Good synopsis and reference. A "clear thinking" example and sample that I think is inspiring to others.

"While I have no doubt that he was a dangerous man capable of training other men to be dangerous he is one of many and in the grand scheme of combatives seems to have played a very small role outside of a small group of friends."

This can be said of many of us. And it really is a true standard of professionalism and success to look at all from and by all of us. Who do we really reach? How well?  And why? Such questions are personal and professional business models to study for future people. 

And if we all wanted to be rich and famous? We'd all be in golf.   

Hock

[Snowball]

You've just missed 'em. Capt. Happy Mike Pizzo "divorced" his buddy Damian Ross and they run rival companies now.