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[grlaun]

I got a look at the Cestari marketing plan that claims to make you rich if you follow it...  Actually, it'll put you in the poor house.  Total lack of common sense.

[JimH]

In the latest Black Belt Mag there are only two ads,both by Damian Ross,selling Carl Cestari's materials as a way to make tons of cash teaching WWII combatives.

Mr Cestari was trying to help Damian by giving him the rights to his materials,Damian waited till Carl was too sick ,then dead,to launch his programs.

The other guy LtX/Capt Chris is back to pushing his materials on the internet again.

The thing is Damian and Chris are buddies and when a person signs on to Damian's sites they will get an E Mail from capt crap,sorry ,I mean Capt Chris to sign on to his Free web clips.

Chris filmed/Films the materials he sells and shows on the web at Damian's Dojo.

Two peas in a pod.
Both using a sick man's,now dead man's ,materials to rip people off with hopes of some big pay off from these materials.

There is nothing special in these WWII Materials that is not discussed on any forums.
The Materials are basic self defense techniques,refined for the battle field.
The materials are Good for what they are and what they try to show as simplistic self defense
but
the video's,Damian and Chris do not and cannot teach you the mind set to employ such tactics.

Sample of both mens materials:
Capt Chris clip
http://www.closecombattraining.com/freecourse/edgeofhandland.php

Damian Ross clip
http://www.thetruthaboutselfdefense.com/

[JimH]

Keith,
I have read Clints posts on other forums.
Great stuff
I believe he is going to be doing seminars and making videos about the materials he trained with and under Carl in.
I look forward to his posting here.

[Bryan Lee]

Bryan what happened to your post that was between mine and Keith's ?
I ignored responding to it ,just responded to Keith and now your post is deleted?
Another case of the vanishing posts
I can Now see why you post peoples full post entries,so the response does not look stupid when the the original post you reply to is changed or deleted.
Excellent concept,though it consumes space it is a way to CYA and not look/sound stupid.

  JimH, Thanks for your concern, If you bothered to look back many of my posts have been hacked into by administration with their name clearly listed as the editor. For a time I made a effort to straighten out some of the editing that messed up quotes and made much of my writing confusing but now I do not bother. I did not delete or even edit the post in question and would imagine Hock or someone else with administration privileges didn't like what I wrote so they deleted it, whatever.

[Bryan Lee]

You know, I took that post down.

A while back. there was a tet-a-tay (sp?) between Bri Thai and Arnold that was unusual and uncalled for...and well...it just to the point that I removed a few of them and soon....there was peace in the valley.

And facts were again discussed.


"Well the bear will be gentle
And the wolves will be tame
And the lion shall lay down by the lamb, oh yes
And the beasts from the wild
Shall be lit by a child
And I'll be changed, changed from this creature that I am, oh yes


There will be peace in the valley for me, some day
There will be peace in the valley for me, oh Lord I pray
There'll be no sadness, no sorrow
No trouble, trouble I see
There will be peace in the valley for me, for me..."



Hock 

   Hock, No worries on that, truth is I have much to do in the coming weeks so I will not be around much anyway, its probably best to start my vacation on a positive note.

 Hand, Stick, Knife, Gun, ( Mur, Mai, Mead, Pbun, in Thai) is alive and well in Thailand, will update in September, till then everybody have a nice summer.

[Milldog1776]

Well,

Through several email conversations with Clint, he has graciously declined to join this forum. He spotted too many people he has had to deal with in the past on other forums, and has just decided that he has better things to do with his time. I don't blame him.

So instead of intelligent, polite conversation...we're stuck with what we got.

He did point me to a Bullshido thread.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62583 That contains some good reading material. And he did tell me that he is filming his first DVD next month.

[JimH]

Keith,

Sorry that Clint will not be posting here.
Would have been nice to pick his brain.

Nice read on that site,gives some insight into Damian and Chris.

Keith if you happen to be talking with Clint and get any info on Seminars,training or when his Dvd's come out please let us (me) know.

Much appreciated.

[Milldog1776]

Bullshido is hard to read. It's kinda sensory overload, huh? Too much going on, maybe?

Synopsis?

Looks like it is confirmed that Clint was picked by Carl to be the successor of the system and Chief Instructor. Not Damien Ross, like it was claimed in Black Belt Magazine.

Damien, apparently only took a handful of Close Combat lessons from Carl. He was mostly a Jiu-Jitsu student and doesn't really know much a bout the system except for what I can only assume he saw in those lessons and seminars. Definately not an instructor. However, Damien and Clint are both 3rd degree black belts in the Jiu-Jitsu system that Carl put together to teach at Damien's school.

It was also stated that Captain Shitstain was never in the military, and had never trained in anything prior to meeting Damien and Carl. If you have seen his dvds that is painfully obvious. He just knew how to make money. According to Clint, Carl only got about 5 cents on the dollar of every tape sold by those criminals. He also confided to Clint that he never should have done it.

It was also confirmed that the gun incident was not a training accident, as we already know. It was however still an accidental discharge, and another off duty cop died. Carl did 5 years in general population because of it.

I think that's all.

[Hock]

One last missing link question...
Perhaps I knew this but I forgot...

What exactly was Cestari's magic connection to the core World War II Combatives heros that makes him special in that regard?

Nelson of New York?
Who?

Hock

[JimH]

Aside from his traditional training,his combatives training was from:
Nelson ,where he was awarded Instructorship
He also trained and trained with
Kary
Steiner
Perkins
He had talked to Applegate,note sure if the meeting and training ever took place.
He sought out and trained with others in the combatives field.
He was also involved with Bob casper and the formation group of Gung Ho Chuan.

I think most of the above,except Nelson and Applegate,were more of his students than teacher,but they all shared their knowledge.

[JimH]

Carl Cestari training and rankings:
*Shodan 1st Degree in Judo USJ under Yoshisada Yonezuka
*Shodan 1st Degree in Tani-Ha Shito Ryu Karate (shukokai)
(His shukokai technique is based on study with four Sensel promarily:S.Kimura,Yonezuka,Kidachi and Ishihara,he trained with Nanbu but that was limited)
*Shodan 1st Degree in Daito Ryu aikijujutsu-Kodokai
*Nidan 2nd Degree in Goju Ryu Karate (Shobukai)
*Sandan 3rd Degree in Nippon kempo with Narabu Sada
*Sandan 3rd Degree from the Federation of practicing Jujutuans
*Godan 5th Degree Jujutsu-world Jujutsu Federation under clarke
*Ryokudan 6th Degree-Koshinkai karate under John Burrelle
*Instructors Certificate-Charles Nelson System of Self Defense under Charles Nelson

Carl Cestari began researching WWII Combatives in and or around 1970,he set out to read,study,interview and train with people familiar with this form of instruction.
(****The above was taken from the Chronicles of Carl Cestari)

It is around this time,the early 70's, that Carl Found Charles Nelson and began training with him.

http://www.carlcestari.com/PHOTO.html

Nelsons school had influence on most of the more popular WWII combat instructors out there:
Carl Cestari was a student and instructor under Nelson
Bob Kasper was a student and instructor under Nelson and Cestari
Steiner was a short term student of Nelson
Perkins was a short term student of Nelson then later a student of Cestari and ranked thrugh and affiliated with Steiner

John Kary was a short term student of Carl Cestari before he began his Comabtives teachings.

Kelly McCann was a student of Bob Kaspers

As to Mr Kary:
I wrote to him a short while ago,perhaps 6 months ago, and in the note inquired to his health.
He said he was well enough and was working on Dvd's
As to his condition of late I am not sure.

As for the Gung Ho Chuan school:
After 9/11 the school was closed because most of the people had gone with Mr Kasper and Kelly McCann to Iraq to teach.( as per the phone message)
The school was still closed,as per the phone messages, up to and just after Mr Kaspers Death.
I do not know if it has reopened and or if so under who.

[serge]

And what was Nelson's connection again?

Biddle + Styers + Sgt. Kelly ( and so, O'Neil, Fairbairn, Sykes )

[lakerssportsfan]

Cestari also did a lot of research with old timers from WW2 who studied under the various famous instructors and actually used some of what they learned--people like OSS and Rangers and Marine Raiders. People who are now mostly in nursing homes and cemetaries. he also collected a lot of obscure books and manuals on the subject.

[Bri Thai]

What a mess. 

It appears that you have to have some kind of "credentials" to teach WW2 Combatives.  But, most of all, you somehow have to be authorised by Carl Cestari?  Because he was in a group of people who all seemed to drop each others' names?

Not that I am bothered.  If I only had a few days to train guys in fighting, especially in a time when many men were trained in boxing or wrestling anyway, I may choose something a little like WW2 Combatives.  I'd try to get rid of some of the obvious flaws in that system of course.

But to train in it when you DO have the time to learn more complete methods?  To train in it when you have more than just a few days?  That's logically unsound.  It's like entering a world class Rally Driving competition after an intensive week's bog standard driving course.

As for all these interviews with military veterans..... any actual details from their experiences in killing the enemy with their bare hands seem to be in short supply?  I've often wondered where the actual "credentials" for the actual system of WW2 Comabtives are?

[JimH]

We do not have specific references to H2H  as used on the battlefield unless through a book or through the commendation process of awarding of medals.

We do have MANY accounts of Marines using the techniques as developed and taught to them by the likes of O'Neil,Styers and Biddle while fighting in the Pacific where many of the conflicts were at close range and the Japanese used penetrators,(men trained  to penetrate enemy lines),to remove sentries and or locate enemy positions.

Did the men engaged in H2H in the Pacific use the exact techniques/training as instructed or did they just do what ever they had to do to survive at close range battle?
That we will never know of the whole or majority of those involved in H2H,but we can gain an idea if we talk to men engaged in H2H in Battle.

I have talked to several WWII and Korean War Marines and Army who said they engaged in H2H on the battlefield and they all replied in the same manner to the question of "What Did You Do"?,They say they did what they had to do to make it out alive.

One man,who is in his 80's  and still working,was recently at his office when two men tried to rob him at gun point.
They demanded money from his safe or they would shoot him,he said he told them to shoot as he didn't care,they beat him,he said nothing and they left.
Why did he not comply?
While in the war he was captured by a German and held at gun point.
He was forced to his knees with the rifle against his head,the trigger was pulled and nothing happened,he killed the German by picking up a stick near his hand and bashing him many times over the head with it.

Doesn't support the WWII H2H concept
or
Does it?
When at close range with the enemy,use any tool or weapon as simply as possible and do what needs to be done.
(Simple WWII combat H2H policy)

Is this a method of Fairbairn,Applegate,Sykes,O'Neil and others?
Yes.
How many men were actually trained in FAS concepts of combat?
Only a small number of elite forces such as Commando's and Rangers.
(later on OSS,CIA and Special Forces)

How many Marines were exposed to the training concepts of the likes of Biddle,Styers and O'Neil?
A Large portion of the Marines who did combat in the Pacific as  these mens concepts were taught to Instructors who taught it Corps wide.

What does all this mean?
Nothing as far as FAS and WWII combatives goes .

What it Does show us about actions under threat.
The man who is threatened must be able to flip the switch to act on his own behalf using his guts and training to hopefully see him through.
(CQB is only ment to give a man such training experiences to fall back on,the guts to act must be inside him)