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[Joe Hubbard]

It's all in the history and nostalgia.  I have always referred to the term “combatives’ as an adjective rather than a noun.  It describes something that is combative in nature and in its application.  I also like the way Kelly McCann describes combatives as an “attitude.”  That really is pretty simple isn't it?  Unfortunately people are complicated and if you don't belong to a particular club or clique, you are branded an outcast for not doing combatives.  This happened to me years ago when Dennis Martin accused me of being a fraud (one who does not do or teach combatives) on his talk forum in the UK.  I found this rich coming from a reinvented bouncer/karate guy with no military background whatsoever.  When I wanted to debate this, he locked me out from his forum- go figure?  

The marketing in combatives is all in the mystery and the unknown; that's why these people have always disregarded anything Hock has ever done.  Hock's material is too transparent, it's the nuts & bolts, but hey, the truth is the truth!

Out

Joe

[Joe Hubbard]

Actually, that's an awesome post Jim and I didn't want my post to be misinterpreted.  Tim Tackett shared some cool stories about Bert Poe, a former Marine Raider, who in his private life used his WW2 Combatives training a lot and had quite a reputation.

Out

Joe

[lakerssportsfan]

It appears that you have to have some kind of "credentials" to teach WW2 Combatives.  But, most of all, you somehow have to be authorised by Carl Cestari?  Because he was in a group of people who all seemed to drop each others' names?

It seems like a loose-loose situation. Either you get criticized for not having a background or you get criticized for having a background. People asked about Cestaris background and other people answered. Then its like the people who have a background are being elitest.

There seemed to be some people latching on to WWII combatives as the next real thing who no real backgtround and did not even teach anything that looked like it and they got called on it.   Some looked like Thai boxing blended with wrestling and others who dont even know how to make an edge of hand correctly.

As for all these interviews with military veterans..... any actual details from their experiences in killing the enemy with their bare hands seem to be in short supply?  I've often wondered where the actual "credentials" for the actual system of WW2 Comabtives are?

While lots of units trained in unarmed methods The main people who had occasion to use them were the OSS operatives who were operating in occupied europe with false credentials who might have gott stopped by Nazis on the street or arrested by them.  Individual soldiers did most of their killing with small arms. If the small arms ran out of ammo you reloaded it. If it happened when an enemy was at very close range you use the weapon to bash them over the head or grab another one like a pistol, knife or entrenching tool.

This happened more in the Pacific theater because of the way the Japanese trained  with heavy emphasis on closing the distance to use the bayonet and charges. Also the jungle limited visibility and allowed enemy to get closer.

[Hock]

And this started out back on page 1 with a mention of Ralph Grasso.
Where does he fit in all this WW II group?
Or does he?


Hock

 

[lakerssportsfan]

Ralph Grasso is a long time student of Cestari and an instructor under him.

Clint Sporman has studied with Carl the longest and was chosen by Carl to be his successor.

Ralph and Clint are friends.  They are not involved with Damian Ross or Lt X or Cap Chris and are disgusted by the situation.

Damian Ross took a few lessons from Carl--maybe 15 or 20--and then got into the business of marketing Cestaris tapes with advertisements that outdid those of TRS or TRW--the tape company.   

Damian later hooked up with Lt X aka Chris Pizzo who had his own distribution set up for a lot of overhyped tapes with names like mercenary combatives or something like that. The hype got even worse.

Now Chris Pizzo is Captain Chris. He and Damian have parted ways. Damian has his own company selling his own tapes with http://www.theselfdefenseco.com/

Cestari was too busy with health problems to mess with all of the tape stuff.

Thats the best I can make of it.

[cfadeftac]

I think people get too tied up in the WWII combatives bit, every time I saw a post from Cestari he always seemed to emphasize that the WWII stuff was simple enough to teach yourself, using the books Kill or Get Killed, Cold Steel, and Get Tough, as long as you paid attention and trained hard.

Also in Clint Sporman's post on Bullshido he emphasized that when Cestari fought he used fists not WWII combatives and that Mr. Cestari thought WWII combatives were great for teaching somebody in a short time how to survive an attack but they were not the end all be all.  I think WWII combatives were such a big thing to many of the people who came from traditional arts that emphasized defense before attack because of the emphasis on attacking first.  Of course properly taught most martial arts allow for pre emptive attack, when I learned Modern Arnis Balintiwak my instructor emphasized that the point was to hit the guy first all the counter for counter comes if the pre emptive fails.

I would definitely like to hear more about Bert Poe, his name comes up once in awhile and you always see vague references to him, a story or two would be appreciated

Andrew

[Bri Thai]

It always amuses me when the disciples belittle the experience of Damian Ross.  He was as much a member of the Wolf Pack as anyone, until he actually made some money by seeling the stuff he'd learned.  They even used his Dojo in NJ for crying out loud.....

But now?  Now he's been branded some kind of fraud?  Why, my oh my.... he only had a few lessons after all....... How history gets re-written.

Joe - Know what you mean about Dennis.  He was always locking threads and banning people merely because they had an alternative view.  If your view didn't reflect his?  Well it was "not the kind of thing we discuss here...." or you were a "trouble maker."

Truth is Dennis would slag all kinds of people off..... but then claim the moral high ground when he got some back.  And his brain dead followers would say that up was down or black was white in their efforts to blame the other party - no matter what good old Dennis said or did.

Now, thanks to your Uncle Brian (apparently!), we don't have to worry about such closed minded types dictating to everyone at Self Protection Dot Com.

[Bri Thai]

Yes mate.

After some initial posts, they all became digs at me.  I did ask him to continue, but ALSO post things that were relevant to topics other than myself.... like maybe some self protection ones?  But he "refused." 

All in all we've had a membership of over 1,000 people over at SP Dot Com.  I think there's been about 5-6 bannings (not including Lito's mate who created about 2 dozen accounts and then pm'd as many people as possible, telling them I was the Devil in disguise)!

Ironically it was Lito who was starting to ban people, and wanted them gone for things like swearing..... "negativity" and even because they had a silly name.

Be fair little guy.  My own brand of positivity has generated lots of stick coming my way over there..... And the posts, and posters, are left for all to see 99.9% of the time.  And the Battlefield and Close Combat forums became one of those silly places where you had to apply to join..... and you only got in if they were satisfied that you would agree with them!  And hey!  Guess what you have to do with Dennis' forum?  Why, you have to apply to join...... That's why all that happens over there are re-hashes of old discussions with no one disagreeing or, worse still, Dennis literally cuts and pastes topics from the past and re-posts them.  Cutting edge stuff!  

Anyways, I ordered your DVD set last week.  It better be good or I will call YOU nasty names in your section!

[Milldog1776]

I would add Fairbairn's name to that list. He released several "self defense" books prior to "Kill or Be Killed".

[Hock]

Speaking of which...

Here we are in late October, 2008...

...have we seen the immediate decrease and disappearance of all the plethoria of Lt X. / (well he has been promoted) Captain Fake Pizzo,  "Make $50,000 a month teaching" ads in the martial arts magazines? Or, have I just missed them?

On the net...I know this "secret, mercenary/warrior" expert wandered onto the screen, on film, in some of these combatives ads webpages with a happy, toy salesman smile and says, "Hi, I'm Cappy Mike..."

are these ads still running?

Hock

[JimH]

As of November 2008 Black Belt Magazine there are No,ZERO,Ads by Capt Pisoff.

[Bryan Lee]

So we could conclude that Nelson and Applegate are the two main vessels by which WW II combatives spread through the USA.

Hock

  On the surface your statement is correct. Its the usual suspects, the names we all know. Then you just have huge numbers of Combat Vets who came home from WW2 and every war for that matter and taught their kids to hunt and fight.

 
   It is sad to see so many caught up in linage and other crap instead of just celebrating the fact that America has produced the greatest fighting men in the history of the world and we need not look outside of our own backyard for combatives or any other fight training.

[theardri]

As of November 2008 Black Belt Magazine there are No,ZERO,Ads by Capt Pisoff.

I wish my spam filter could say the same ....

[Bri Thai]

It'll be a selection of my fans.

I have received death threats after occasional posts that fail to totally agree with a selection of untouchables, such as Cestari.  These sad f/wits really need to get a life.

[MarineWar1]

Allow me to "bump" this topic AND introduce myself to this great forum.

First, a lot of great info on this thread - although I don't like the usual "politics" associated with all the different WW2 groups out there.

I was one of the original members of the Gung Ho Chuan Association, or at least a very early member. After my stint in the Marine Corps and my first divorce, I evacuated Texas and headed north to train with Bob Kasper, John Kary, and eventually Kelly McCann once he joined up with the GHCA. I lived up in NY and NJ for over a year, eating, breathing, and living CQC. From training in knee-deep snow with Kary the first day I arrived on Long Island to being sliced up by Kasper with his KniCom to combat handgunning with Kelly, those are days that will live with me forever. Like a lot of associations, politics and pride eventually lead to some of the top members of the GHCA seperating and going their own ways (NOT going to diviluge all the dirty laundry here - I still respect all of the old members). I was able to get instructorship status by the GHCA and American Combatives, but never opened a school or put up a website, although I have trained some militia-types in my old neck of the woods

Cestari was only mentioned a few times, but Charles Nelson had a HUGE impact on Kasper. Each one of those guys had their own persona and way of doing things. BK had that wry smile while holding a knife, a consumate professional while training and great guy to hang out with afterwards. Just as you "thought" you had a slash on him, you were impaled on his training blade sucking wind. Kary was a DANGEROUS motherf'er, and if he got his hands on you you would die. Although blind, he could tell you exactly what you were doing wrong not to get the power needed in whatever strike/choke/neckbreak you were performing (don't judge his prowess by his videotapes alone - they were watered down IMO). And speaking of dangerous mf'ers, there was McCann. Another consumate professional where I learned more about the Glock 19 than I could ever have dreamed - and another great guy to hang out with afterwards. We were all Marines and Gutter Brothers, but as the old saying goes "all good things come to an end".

I have been a lurker here for a few months now, and have seen a lot of Hock's videos and like all that I have seen. For the most part, I enjoy the hell out of this forum. Hopefully I will be able to attend one of the seminars someday. I am also a martial arts "junkie", and enjoy training to train.