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[whitewolf]

All-I subscibe to PoliceOne and on the latest the two listed above were interviewed.
Without going into a lot of  detail it appears that these two fine gentlemen have really assisted in the training of our police officers. Both made reference to the fine caliber of officers out in the field - I would hope that the average citizen in the US understands that without the police officer standing in the way  of "evil" as discribed our country would be in horrible  shape from every  preditor that walks in the shadows ready to pop out and attack. I made some notes from their interviews  to look at and pass on when i  can to students that come to  me for any training-hope that you all get a chance to view the vidios of the interviews-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)

[Hock]

Chudwin is an above average instructor.

You will find mixed emotions about Grossman. Frankly I am unimpressed. I don't like many of his old "PPCT"-like conclusions. You can't confuse his "aw-shucks charm," with ground-breaking or a special instructor. Yet, he seems to have become the" poster boy of death" at many police conferences, hasn't he? Popular.

Read...
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,3466.0.html

Especially read this...
http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm
Grossman is challenged and questioned by other established, top police instructors. I am one of them.

I would take Chuwin over Grossman. I have extensively reviewed both Grossman's books here on this webpage somewhere and went over them with a magnifying glass. I suggest veryone read both of them, but remain skeptical an inquesitive.

I have come to disbelieve and distrust much of what Siddle has produced as back-room science, (and much of this own materials has been dropped by Siddle himself now anyway, and if Grossman sticks too close to Siddle in the future? In my opinion, that is a tarnishment)

Hock

[whitewolf]

Hock-thanks for your input-as a former police officer on the line i know you have seen a  hell of a  lot-guess what i was impressed with is some of the statement s on how the po is on the line out there and they (men/women) are the front line of defense (my words)
-I never have seen either of these guys in person-so I am going on what i pick up from vidios like this.
Some of the statements I joted down are:(i changed some of the words)
1-"it will be someone elses probelm.It wont happen to  me...
2-always prepare for the real fight....
3-move from standby to fighting.....
4-1/10th of 1 % is the altercation-rest of the 36 degrees is other things
   (This one made a  lot of sense to  me-where i am our main objective is to report
    suspicious activiity or personnel-but we wind up  lots of  times in other areas)
Only thing i  can say is eventually Ill be back stateside and can attend some of your
seminars that deal with these areas-for now I just read and digest what will help.
whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)

[whitewolf]

Hock-as you recommended I read the article between Aveni and Grossman-appears that they are on opposite sides of the fence-I dont know know is right who is wong-I do  know that in some recent incidents that the NYPD does over kill-example 50 rounds into a unarmed man-dont even know if that is true or  not but thefact remains that sure is a lot of rounds down  range when someone is not shooting back?
anyhow ill continue to review all articles and hopefully learn from them.
thanks-whitewolf (el   lobo blanco)

[Hock]

Grossman has never been a cop, just as quick aside for what that is worth...,
...and these statements are found just about by any training sergrant in America these days. Chudwin will say them. Grossman will say them.

Grossman is still all caught up in the older, mindlessly accepted:
 
   Hicks Law:       http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/hickslaw.htm     
   Startle Reflex:  http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/startle-reflex/startle-reflex.htm

Which is the mis-directed, balony of decade's old, yesteryear. (But Grossman is very smart and very slick and I find little "parachute" remarks and wiggle room when pressed on these issues.)

This balony has been re-processed in horribly stupid and misleading versions by uneducated cops, trainers and soliders. Probably the worst version I have ever found was a once popular article reprinted all over the web by the Canadian "WIN" cop/guy/trainer who made the most miss-mashed mess of heart rate, startle reflex and Hick's Law, rambling concoction I've ever seen anywhere.

Grossman also believes that ambush Fight and Flight should include "Posture and Submission. He ignores "freeze" per say.  I think that posture and submission is more of a delayed, decided decision as oppossed to an instant reflex, (as do about 60,000 clinical psycholgists) I mean, if an ambushed person drops to his knee or to the ground, is that a sensory overload/body reflex, or a mental decision to surrender and posture-like surrendering?

Fight, freeze or flight is a thoughtless, instanteanious body move
http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/fightflightfreeze/index.htm

Hock

[whitewolf]

Hock-hope i am not taking to  much  of  your time on this-i read the 3 Fs you wrote-good information-ill reread it and digest-i am not a very educated person as far as degrees are concerned-but I attempt to pick out the pertinent info that articles like you wrote that will assist  me in my  job-it is very interesting that many westerneers over here in kuwait (civilians) seem to  change and they act what i  call as superior and snobbish and act as if they are invencible/stupid--which translates to me as a residential security  officer responding to a problem and first thing i  think of -will they snap??
so-i take your articles and put them into perspective for this area-make sense?
When i read a  article written or a interview by someone like Grossman-I close my  mind to him and attempt to get into the comments/thoughts and see if it fits for me-anyway stay safe-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)

[hessian1]

Hi all,

   Last year I attended TREXPO East and got to hear Lt Col. Grossman's speak as the keynote speaker, and regardless of what you think of his writings he is one hell of a
motivational speaker. Having read both his books and the arguments/discussions concerning the resources used I have noticed a shift in his writings. I think his heart is in the right place he just needs to expand his use of research outside military resources and
Bruce Siddle ( who by the way is in the process of re-evaluating much of the information
in his first book since the blood pressure/heart rate connection kind of fell apart due to
more recent and miore detail research).

   I believe the reason he is so popular with LEO is because much of what he says serves as good information for the defense of LEO behavior during conflict as well as his motivaional speaking.  In fact if I remember correctly the video on the internet of the young man pulling the arsenal, including a shotgun, out of his baggy clothing is Mr.
Grossman's son.

   Keep safe and train hard/smart,  Mark H

[whitewolf]

Hes-1=i agree he really is a motovational speaker-he gets the crowd fired up-thats what is needed so that the listeners will take what he has spoken about to the street and not get complacent-which will get one hurt or worse-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)

[hessian1]

    Whitwolf,

          A very amusing moment from his lecture was when he asked how many of the officers present if they golfed, about half raised their hands (by the way I don't because of the cost and time). He then asked the crowd if they knew the definition of golf to which nobody replied. Hethen stated "golf is a good waste of range time". The place fell out with laughter.

Keep safe and train hard/smart,  Mark H

[whitewolf]

I liked that-stay  safe  whitewolf (el  lobo  blanco)

[Hock]

Just a heads up on this. One of my personal heros, the author and Department of psychology, Harvard, Steven Pinker is in the process of writing a book on violence, from war, history down onto inter-personal crime. I have read every Pinker book, reading his latest book right now, The Stuff of Thought (about how the brain manifests language).

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/books/stuff/index.html

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/steven_pinker_on_language_and_thought.html

...and seen him in numerous interviews. Pinker is an obsessed reseacher, and reeks of common sense with scary high intelliegence, with enormus insight, and out-of-the-box thinking.

I have every expectation that this book on violence, will over shadow EVERY other book o the planet on this subject, the best ever written, making Grossman and DeBecker look like drop-outs. At this date, it appears the title with have the words "wings of" in it.

Hock

[Nick Hughes]

The problem with motivational speakers (who only motivate, and don't educate) is that if you motivate an idiot now you have a motivated idiot...not good.

The problem with Grossman is akin to that of someone who tells one lie on the witness stand...after that, all his testimony is tainted.

Grossman had these complete BS numbers about man's reluctance to kill...someone looked into it on Geoff Thompson's forum once and pulled a couple of famous WWII fights between Brits and Germans and if you believed Grossman's numbers only 2 of the Brits killed all of the Germans.  Patently stupid and obviously not true.  That in turn destroyed any credibility he had as far as I'm concerned.

Nick

[michael]

Grossman is a good speaker and clearly has made a lot of money off of his material, but that does not make it any more or less valid. I am pretty unimpressed with him overall, and his anti-gun stance is well documented, though he has seemed to back off of that somewhat in the last couple of years.

Chudwin is a good guy, and I have great respect for the manner in which he runs his department and stands up for his guys. He regularly goes to bat for them, and I admire a guy like that. I do not know anything about his expertise as an instructor, other than he is constantly trying to increase his knowledge.

[whitewolf]

I just went on the internet and read some of  Mr Chuwins articles-very informative and even though I am not a police officer the points he makes apply over here and make good sense-the more i read here on the forum the more i feel comfortable working out in the city-WW (ELB)