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[Hock]

The next sacred cow I would to examine...

Gross Motor Movements...

What do you all think this is?
And opinions on it?

Hock

[Tank2]

I define gross motor movements as those movements we mostly develop in very early childhood. It usually starts with the head, and moves down the body. For example, a newborn baby first learns to hold its head up and then to reach for something and so on. It is years before it takes its first step. Gross motor movements continue to develop throughout childhood and adolescence while bone growth and hormones continue to change.

What is interesting to me about your question is that "part" of development as a fighter that is so much like the move from child to adult. We all have to learn first how to hold our heads up and then to crawl, walk, and run! However, as an adult, we do have some level of foundation in gross motor skills. Its those "fine" motor skills we have so much trouble developing.

[juszczec]

Gross motor movements?

First, my standard disclaimer - I'm a karate guy talking about physiology.  That's kinda like a guy who runs a car crusher talking about the influence of tolerances within a cylinder on torque in the axle and mpg.

What are gross motor movements.  I won't attempt the medical definition because I just run a car crusher.

From a fighting perspective, I guess gross motor movements have come to mean the finest movement you can make while fighting and dealing with the emotion and adrenaline.

There's a school of thought that says the finest movement can be as fine as you want.  They teach responses that are (IMO) the equivalent of threading a needle.  There's another school of thought that says in a pressure situation about the only thing your body can do is big simple movments - think swinging a rock.

The truth?  Who knows.  Personally, I think its somewhere in between the extremes.

[JimH]

I think a gross motor function is just a function that is decided upon a s the weapon of choice  and not used in that moment as a fine motor function.

A fine motor function can be used if it is trained to be used while under pressure.

Now a fine motor skill is said to be such things as grabbing or holding a specific body part or limb and a Gross motor skill is said to be a hand strike,punch,palm heel,edge of hand,push,pull or a non specific targeted kick
or
running away.

In a fight for my life I am not going to use a grab into a pain compliance technique so I have just eliminated the need for a fine motor skill,at least at that particular time,I am going to strike and or kick Vital targets on the opponent.(striking specific points to some is seen as a fine motor skill)

What is the need and what are the Rules of Engagement for me ,if any,in this conflict,as the ROE will also direct my response needs.
If I am a Police Officer and am making an arrest,I have to act within the guidelines of my department and at some point I will have to Immobilize the opponent,subdue and restarin him/her and cuff them.
If I am a civilian then striking with hands,feet,legs and elbows,maybe all I have to do to enable me to get away.(I am not forced into abiding by ROE)

[mleone]

Large muscle group movements

Small muscles groups like turning a key in an ignition.

I myself train both, I call it high and low stress training.
We focus on both at our place.

[Joe Hubbard]

Coordination.

Out

Joe

[whitewolf]

steping out of the way of a speeding car=gross motor movement
grabbing a opponents hand trying to pickpocket you and back  fisting his face with the other-the other one-  (happened to me in Olongapo-heheheh) whhitewolf (el  lobo blanco)

[the ginger one]

my understanding of it is there is fine, complex and gross motor-skills...

fine - threadding the eye of a needle

complex - putting a pair of handcuffs on a 'customer'

gross - swinging a haymaker in a bar room brawl

from personal experience I have found that as your pulse rate changes your performance changes. As the pulse rate rises the ability to use fine skills disappears rapidly, then complex drops off until you are left with gross motor-skills... who has ever watched a boxing match (or any other combat sport) where as the fighters have got tired due to lack of physical fitness their finesse turns into swinging wildly? Or who has ever tried to write their name at the end of a stress circuit - difficult isn't it? Prime examples right there

gross motor-skills are the things that are ingrained into your muscle memory (as mentioned in Hock's 3000 - 5000 article). But the 'complex' side of the skill will be lost - that punch won't be as snappy, the kick won't be as precise - but it will still land!

Of course this doesn't only apply to being physically exhausted the pulse can also rise due to the effects of stress (part of the flight/fright/fight/freeze response - I can never remember which order they go in!!!) and the skills will still fall off!

If you want proof how quickly performance tails off get a class doing a strike circuit or stress circuit of somekind and monitor performance by using a fine/complex motor-skill test (like stacking paper cups upside down in a pyriamid - ten at least!!!) at various levels of pulse rate. They won't be able to stack the cups quickly/efficently as their pulses rise but they'll still belt seven bells out of whatever pad you use!!! Hence reverting to gross motor-skills...

sorry if you all knew this - don't like preaching to the converted. But when someone mentions Gross Motor Skills to me my thought process goes straight to the above.

[JimH]

Ginger,
Nice post.
Do you follow or read PPCT materials.

I do not doubt you experiences with Heart Rate and pulse.

I am not picking on you,I am just going to use your post/statement to make a point,so please DO NOT think I am attacking you,this is not my point.

My experiences are different,I have only ever experienced adrenaline dump to an extent that hearing  was lessened and things started to go in slow motion once,though I have been in MANY altercations,the one were adrenaline dump was felt was a 10 on one scenario,in which I was able to hold my own and the dump seemed to happen near the end of the altercation,as I was on the down side of the fighting.

If we hold that heart rate /pulse and Performance are inter twined how does a member of the Military fight and move,shoot and move when under attack?

How is a Bi athlete able to do a physically demanding sport of skiing and shooting?
The bi athlete brings their Heart rate up to around 200 bpm and then during the shooting phase,which is a fine motor skill classification,they are able to hit a small target.

I believe that with training and EXPOSURE while under Pressure one can develop the ability to use Fine Motor skills and or complex motor skills at higher Heart rates and pull them off.

If we teach this Heart rate Pulse theory,how do we know when we are no longer able to do something of a fine or gross nature?
We do not have a way to monitor our heart rate when fighting,except by mechanical device/heart rate monitor or something.

I think Heart Rate/Pulse is an exageration which has caught on same as 3000-5000 rep needs.

The examples of tired/exhausted people not being able to perfom has to do with expended energy ,lack of fuel to the system to fire ,rather than heart rate.

I can take a person who weight trains and have them do one set of heavy squats in the 8-10 rep range to failure and when finished their legs will be jello,their Heart rate would be up but if I asked them to do a GROSS motor skill task of running around the block they would not be able to.
Now according to he literature,no matter the Heart rate one will always be able to RUN Away,fight or FLIGHT.

Well why are my squaters unable to run?
Is it their Heart rate is too high?
or
Is It lactic acid is preventing their recovery and performance?

It is lactic acid.

If I train these people from that point to squat hard and force them to run  around the block,soon they will be able to do it,because of the bodies ability to ADAPT to need.

Ginger,Again ,please DO NOT think I am attacking you or your points,just using them as you are not alone in your thoughts and I have a different opinion,as I am sure  maybe Hock and others do,as Hock hinted at an article on the falicy of Heart rate and performance.

[the ginger one]

good points well made Jim...

I agree the heart rate theories are a generalisation (as most things are in life) and if you take the extreme cases they will be different - like your heavy squatting weight lifters and your bi-athletes

also those theories don't take into account the other chemical changes in the body that occur - as you've mentioned, lactic acid. The heart rate theory has one major omission, what happens when you do exert yourself to the point of failure? You drop thats what!!! (Is hitting the deck in total exhaustion classed as a gross motor-skill?  )

that aside something my first Sensei told me (a very talented MA-ist and an ex-member of a Royal Navy Field Gun Crew) fitness is how long you take to recover. To take your bi-athlete example, the competitor will get their heart rate up way high during the physical section but when they 'down test and adjust' to shoot they are already lowering their heart rate by 1. Being sooooo damn fit and 2. Lots of practise of breathing/relaxation techniques in that particular situation i.e. they are used to it and have trained their bodies to adapt.

the same kind of thing goes to your military example, under the stress of being fired upon does your 'average' rifleman get the same grouping he does on the range back at base? How does the Delta/SAS guy differ? Again I 'd have money on the higher end of the spectrum will perform better because of the prep - more/better training.

In my profession I have only let a handful of people that are up to that level and when you meet them it is clear they are 'there'. I wish everyone I taught/worked with/trained with was at that level, but those that are not will be effected by heart rate increase, along with every other chemical change in the body - it has to be considered

[the ginger one]

and to answer the question about PPCT... nope, never been on one of their courses. Are they any good? I missed out on a Hock course in London a few months ago due to injury - with which I was more than a little hacked off. Done a little with HSS International.

Mainly 'job' training and MA since I was a kid (style of choice Ju-Jitsu with elements of Kempo and Ai-Kijitsu thrown in)

[Hock]

Force Science of Minniesota University has pretty much put the Kibash (a yankee term for squashing) on the heart rate concept, basis.

They proclaim that varying levels of fear and anger actual alter performance, not the simple heart rate.

The heart rate can be incidental, going up or down, while the mental distractions and chemical distractions work on performance.

Actually, years ago JimH first drew my attention to this idea, because I was stumbling along with the throng and when I looked into it, there was research that the heart rate concept is one of those sacred cow/training concepts, we have all taken for granted.

It is so easy to assume the heart rate is in charge and the heart rate idea was put forth and publicizes by PPCT Bruce Siddle in what I have nicknamed

                    "Cops with stop watches running tests in their basements."

...that is when people like me and Siddle and others, absolutely and totally unqualified to run any kind of medical or psychological test, do so and then publish results.

Siddle was mature and smart enough to back away from all this when the science came out recently. And the PPCT page was removed form the web too. Good for them. But not after spreading a bunch of junk out there for over a decade, that seems to make sense at the time. Next, came all the hot air that you pooped at 125 beats a minute and all that crap just kept growing.

Losing skills is far more complicated an issue than simple heart rates.

As a note one of the early researchers on this was a doctor on a treadmill. His heart rate was at about 170 bpm and he was text messaging. He said to himself..."you know, I don't think I am supposed to be able to do this..!"

I still think for any number of reasons you should work out and keep that heart rate strong and healthy. Wind sprints keep the escalation and descalation systems working. BUt Fear, Pain and Anger Managaement are real keys to perfomance. Siddle side-tracked us from these important issues. 

Much more on this here...
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,3162.0.html
(However my original blog may have bit the dust and I erase older blog months up when I add new ones. It might still be there?)

Hock

[the ginger one]

but those that are not (at that level) will be effected by heart rate increase, along with every other chemical change in the body - it has to be considered

Hock - is my quote above correct? is there a definitive answer? Or is it like a lot things to do with the human body and mind - a big grey area where it really depends on the individual and the situation they are?

[Hock]

Years ago, naysayers to the heart rate arguement would parade out examples of gihter pilots, snipers, certain heros performing under hideious stress and the Siddle-ites would more or less say..."oh...those are SPECIAL people." Even to suggest that there peopl who perfom small finite movements fast are some kind of freaks.

And as far as heart rate goes, it does go without saying at the very VERY extremes heart rates can make a differnce. If your heart is so low and about to stop, or so high it is about to explode, then heart rate will affect performance.

Also..."speeding" blood cannot pick up fresh oxygen and there is some talk now that speeding blood may not pick up and carry the adrenaline hormanes so easily too! But I cannot get a definitive expert answer on that point and in the end, they tell me it is a going to happen in milleseconds anyway. 

But now what was the question? At some level, for some people? Heart rate matters? At those far ends of the continuum.

Dr Bill Lewinski of MN Univeristy, runs the college wing on these very subjects, looked me dead in the eye and said Fear and Anger destroy performance and skills, not heart rate.

We did not discuss the continuum of this, that fear and anger at various levels can enhance or destroy skills. This has been suggested in various places and makes excellent common sense.  Anecdotially, half a dose of adrenalin did wonders for me. But when it had taken me completely over? As in a complete shock and ambush? I recall various problems.   

I am inclined to think the high heart rates are side products and by-products of all this, NOT the cause. Not the measuring meter. Not cause and effect. Your heart rate increaes BECAUSE all this is going on. At various rates for everyone.

Hock

[Nick Hughes]

Just to throw something into the mix...Mas Ayoob of the Lethal Force Institute did a study some years ago where he injected epinepherin into five combat handgunners who compete in competitions on a regular basis.

One performed about the same...the other four performed BETTER...so much for adrenalin wiping people out.

Also...I was told in the Legion during jump training that a test had been conducted on a brand new jumper and a seasoned pro with over 3000 jumps.  (funny, I don't need 3,000 -5,000 reps to pull a rip cord when jumping from a plane!!!! Hmmmmm...sorry, I digress)

They both had heart rates of just over 200 beats per minute...the beginner looked like a nervous bag of shite...the old hand looked like any other old hand...laughing, joking, goofing around while standing on the platform waiting his turn.

Nick