Topic: Jim Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based? (Read 5473 times)

Joe Hubbard · « **on:** July 13, 2008, 07:34:30 AM »

"SGT. JIM WAGNER TO HOST FULL WEEK OF TRAINING. Yes, the founding father of Reality Based Self Defense, JIM WAGNER will be hosting a full week of ALL his course outlines at...."
- reads his Black Belt Magazine ad.

Founding father. Creator. Wagner claims he was the first to coin the term Reality Based Self Defense in 2003? It is stated somewhere in his promotional garbage that he started his civilian system around that time, but in 2001 I was teaching his London representative David Shorter who said Wagner was already teaching mainly civilians. In fact, at the time I was soliciting the London Metropolitan Police trying to get Hock a seminar.

Shorter bitterly told me it was a waste of time because he failed miserably in getting the Met police interested in hosting Wagner. Shorter then paid for Wagner to come to London by himself, and teach a seminar out of his own pocket. Shorter expected all of his buddies to turn up and guess the news? Four people attended. One off-duty cop. three civilians.

Please understand, I am not reveling in other people’s misfortunes, but the punch line to the story is Wagner went back to the U.S. and in his next Black Belt magazine column said he:

" had just returned from London after being
commissioned by the London Metropolitan Police to
teach their recruits at Hendon."

Of course, I knew the truth, but readers bought into that deception. About a year later the Met Police contacted me and we organized Hock’s first police sponsored seminar at Hendon, Met Police Academy, where he appears once every two years.

Around that time Shorter was telling me that Wagner had disappeared off the scene because

"he had gone into deep cover getting involved
in something really secret."

That turned out to be the Air Marshall gig that he was forced to leave within a year.

------------------------------------------------

So when exactly was the term Reality Based first used?

Read this from Wagner's Webpage, circa 2003 -
"Jim Wagner, a former soldier, corrections officer, street cop, SWAT officer, diplomatic bodyguard, and counterterrorist for the United States Government immediately following 9/11, was the first self-defense instructor to introduce the civilian martial arts world to authentic police and military training methods as

   early back as 1998, at which time he coined the term reality-based.

Then in 2003, after 146 counterterrorist missions, Jim Wagner left full-time law enforcement and formed the civilian version of his system."
   -Jim Wagner Webpage, 2003
   (note the 146 "counter-terrorism" missions)"

-------------------------------------------------

To be quite honest, I remember guys like Sammy Franco, Tony Blauer and Richard Dimitri using this term way before Jim Wagner ever did- wasn’t his first BB column called High Risk? Please correct me if I am wrong. JW also claims he first coined the terms Pre Conflict, Conflict and Post Conflict; wasn’t Blauer doing this in the 80s? When did Dimitri go solo? Wasn’t it 1994 or 1995? Sammy Franco wrote many books for Paladin back in the 80s- didn’t he use that Reality Based moniker for his system? I could swear he did! Also, what about Vunak? Once again these outlandish claims by Wagner are easily proven wrong with just a little research.

W.R. Mann of the internet Reality Fighting Magazine (once quite popular and a ground breaking idea to make such a computer magazine) wrote this many years ago in his on-line, Reality Fighting Magazine. At the time Mann was a certfied Wagnerette. But he has since "stepped away," from it all.

The Origin and Development of Reality-Based-Training
"Reality-based-training is a recent development; the overall concept was created in 1998 by Jim Wagner, a former soldier, jailer, police officer, SWAT team member, diplomatic bodyguard, and counterterrorist for the United States government following the attacks on the United States on 9/11...The concept of Reality-based-Training was conceived in 1995, when Jim Wagner contacted Black Belt Magazine and offered to write articles...."

Then elsewhere there, in another article, Mann writes -

History of Reality-Based Defense
Reality-based systems started appearing in the U.S. and England around the same time, between 2000-2001. Many groups started experimenting with a more realistic approach to self-protection by simplifying traditional styles and other combat systems in an effort to make them easier to learn yet still be effective. The early influences were combatives as well as some traditional stylists who adapted and streamlined more elaborate traditional arts. The main problem was that traditional martial arts never proved that effective against modern street criminals and alternatives were sought to remedy this. Some individuals having spent their lifetime involved in their arts started seriously questioning whether much of what they learned had any real functional value.

When was, what term coined where, by whom?

Out

Joe

Hock · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2008, 07:12:00 AM »

in case you are wondering, why this is repeated from somewhere else? I am trying to move some of my posts around and reduce the "Jim Wagner," "fingerprint" on my talk forum. The guy already gets enough free advertising...

And first? read these:
The Jim Wagner 13 Questions
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4049.0.html

<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>

Oh Lordy, Lordy....

   "where in the world would we be without Wagner rescuing us?"

And those TEN-years changing the world, to get his difficult message out. A savior!

But a large, real-world, training theme really got kicked off with Darren Levine and Krav Maga in the late 1990s. Then the theme really got re-invirgorated again after 911.

But the past? Now I am not a collector of these old Black Belt magazines, any one want to comment on this? And since I do not have any, I hate to precisely comment. I have only my memory.

I started reading Black belt magazine in 1973. I recall:

  - police aikido articles from Duane Dwyer.
  - Bernie Lau police articles...
  - gun disarming,
  - all kinds of counter-rape stories in the 1980s and 1990s.
  - sudden assault solutions.
  - People in civilian clothes fighting criminals.
  - Karate people dressed in civvies kicking bad guys.
  - Tony Blaur in the 1980s videos talking about all this stuff, including pre and post material

Some of you might have these old BB magazines. I feel completely confident they existed pre-Wagner.

And, it was in 1999 that Darren Levine's World Krava Maga was formed - the same year Wagner launched this solo, epic, decade-long campiagn as founder/sole-savior of reality-based, self defense, to save the world? Whom do you suppose had a bigger impact? These Krav ads and stories were in Black Belt and all the MA group magazines like NAPMA. Darren Levin'es marketing and ad money created an international wellspring for Krav Maga Reality.

Peyton Quinn has been in NAPMA for years back then as columist writing a reality column, doing his bullet suit program for years before 1999. He was other people doing the same for years before that. Counter-crime and counter-rape material dating back to the 1970s.

But, I would say Darren Levine and all that he spent and formed and paved the biggest way for a host of other Israeli people did a whole lot of...paving and changing. He had a huge effect by iinvading into Tae Kwon Do Associations and selling them almost all of them on the idea on non-tradional self defense.

I have come to think that only a naive fool would believe that Jim Wagner is the founder/father/inventor of reality-based training in ...1999 or 2003, whatever the dates I've seen Wagner and followers proclaim.

Hock

Nick Hughes · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2008, 01:55:46 PM »

My article, entitled "Combat Reality" was published in Terry O'Neill's Fighting Arts International back in late eighties, early nineties. I don't have a copy to hand but I believe I mentioned John Kuhl of "Combat Karate" using a mock up of a bar in his school.

We were also using rubber knives with lipstick on the blade (to show you where you got cut) in Oz in the late seventies and I took the drill and used it in a seminar in Ocean City NJ in 94 when I moved to the US.

Nick

Benjamin Liu · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2008, 02:51:09 PM »

IMO there really isn't anything new in martial arts training today as opposed to the 1970s-1990s, the main difference is labeling, image, and marketing.

Coining the term "reality-based self-defense" isn't the same as founding the "movement." I started actual martial arts training in the late 1980s (I read books and magazines since the mid -1980s) and this trend was around even then.

Robert Bussey's ads and writing since the mid-1980s often used the word "realistic" to differentiate himself from what he considered unrealistic in traditional martial arts.

Mark MacYoung was already writing his books by the late 1980s.

For training in BDUs, Michael Echanis' books were published in the late 1970s.

Sammy Franco started writing in the late 1980s IIRC.

My Karate teacher had different types of training on different nights, one was kata, one was lots of reps for conditioning, one was sparring, and one was self-defense, which was pretty much what people consider RBSD these days. I'm sure many other dojos that had full-time teaching (as opposed to just meeting twice a week) had similar programs. From talking to people in those days, while many did confuse sport, tradition, and self-defense, there were also many who did not.

Many colleges had self-defense programs.

Programs like Model Mugging were already around in the 1980s. I saw a program on TV at the time with guys in those big-head padded suits attacking female students.

Then of course there was Bruce Lee in the 1960-70s.

Just doing an Amazon search for "self defense" books published before the year 1990 will show many books that are not traditional or sports martial arts books. Just make sure to filter out the word "psychic" when doing an Amazon search for "self-defense" or you'll get some strange results

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2008, 04:35:27 PM »

Johnny Kuhl only spoke and wrote of the Reality of Combat in articles and in his Combat Karate magazine.
Combat Karate Magazine was around since the late 60's.
( I have some of the mags still)

There were manyt others aside from Johnny Kuhl preaching reality in articles and in his magazine.

Frank Ryan was another.
Frank even wrote on the Reality of street fighting compared to the ring.
One such article he challenged Joe Lewis to travel certain sections of NYC to see the difference of sport vs ring.
(article was early 70's)

I had opportunity to train with both men in Reality when JW was still in diapers.

Reality back then also was just showing up and getting on the floor,as their was no sport,sparring was no gear getting your butt handed to you,getting hurt,bloody and sometimes broken.
The dojo was the street,except some one stopped it before you got killed,lol.

Just because JW NEVER trained in a Gym that offered reality,his words,(though I wonder what Inosanto was teaching),it does not mean Reality concepts,fighting,scenarios,props were not used.

Mike Enchanis ,as said,was in the mags and his books were out in showing his version of Hwarangdo in the mid to late 70's.
Mike lived reality.

Blauer,Dimitri,Franco were all talking Reality before JW.

I guess JW coined the term in Costa Mesa,Ca,and he thought it was the world.lol.

JimH · « **Reply #5 on:** July 15, 2008, 03:59:34 PM »

Nick,
When in NY contact me through this forum,through Hock or drop by the school.
It will be Great to meet you.

Hock,
In Regards to WR Mann.
WR had let his site Real fighting drop off.

I first met WR at the JW course in NYC 2003.
WR has a Great background in many traditional and non traditional arts.
WR did take JWs Level 1 and level 2

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Quote from Jim Wagner's site:
"If you had a desire to learn how to sky dive or SCUBA dive for the first time, would you want to learn from someone who has never jumped from an airplane before or someone who only got their underwater experience from a swimming pool? Of course not, and yet most civilian self-defense instructors have never been in an actual life-and-death conflict, and are merely passing down information given to them from their instructors. Even if they have been in the proverbial “bar fight” in their past the question must be asked, “Have they been shot at, attacked with a knife, or looked into the eyes of a criminal or terrorist?”

Quote from wagner's site under the HSS section:

In 2002 Jim Wagner was again thrown into the fire when the president of HSS International said to Jim, "Our instructor for the tactical dive course cancelled and I don't have anyone that can go to Miami. Jim, you are the only one I've got who can pull it off." Jim told his partner that although he had plenty of SCUBA and maritime training under his belt, he was not comfortable being the chief instructor to professional police dive teams. However, after much arm twisting Jim reluctantly agreed to fly to Miami and teach the course to the half dozen agencies hosted by the North Miami Police Department.

The important point of the HSS Section on Wagner's site in relation to the above follows:

"I learned then and there that teaching was not always about direct experience, but accumulated experiences or just a good solid understanding of the material. Being a good instructor is about learning information well and passing it on to others.

So Jim,
Is it important to learn from someone who has done the things they say,as you wrote in the First Paragraph above?
Or
Is it important to NOT have Done the things you teach,but just have a good understanding that you can relate to students,as you wrote in the third/last paragraph from your site above?

Again
If you say you are from Harvard and teach Math and people pay good money to you
Then
You find out that they were actually only a Janitor at Harvard with a basic understanding of Math
Would you Say
They got something for the BIG BUCKS you charged ?
They never did the research on you ? (Buyer beware)
They got what they paid for and you should be able to keep doing what you do,making false claims and charging BIG BUCKS for the basic Understanding?

In the Instruction of the ADVANCED TACTICAL Dive Course mentioned above did it dawn on you that these ADVANCED divers were paying for Instruction from a supposed Advanced Tactical DIVE Instructor,who it turns out was not even a Basic Tactical Dive Instructor ?
Did you feel bad taking the full amount for BS Instruction ?
Did getting away with fake Instruction on that day pad your resume to then reflect you were NOW an advanced Tactical Dive Instructor ?

LOL

I am also Curious still of this claim of being shot at you keep writing about.
As in 2003 at your Instructor Course you CLAIMED to Never Have Been shot at.
So since you were already done with all type Police/FAM Work and out working as a Private Citizen in 2003,when did you get shot at ?

Was it shot at by simulated ammo at a training course ?

Since you do not know the disposition of the supposed TERRORISTS you engaged as an Air Marshall,how do you know what looking into the eyes of a Terrorists is like?
Funny in the Instructors Course in 2003 you said you had gone through time as a FAM as UNEVENTFUL,yet NOW you have some Great stories of saving the world.

I still wonder what the FAM Bosses thought of the incident,if there REALLY was one,of you suspecting a man of having something in his brief case taking the man off the plane and you OPENING the Brief Case on the Plane to find the documents of a NUCLEAR Nature ?
Imagine if the case had a bomb in it ?
Not very sound Real World Tactics to me.
Hey but having an UNDERSTANDING over HAVING DONE the Subject Matter is all that matters as an Instructor anyway.
RIGHT JIM ?

LOL

All your claims are all to make you seem like a Been There Done That Guy.
I guess you are ,in a REALITY BASED SENSE,Just a Basic Understanding Guy,rather than a REAL World Done It Guy.

Jim Wagner says:
I was a member of SWAT,but as Command Post Operations Officer,not a door kicking member
But in doing that Job
I learned,(but did not do/got a Basic Understanding of),How SWAT Teams Operate,Tactics, Hostage Rescue,Hostage Negotiations,Logistics and SNIPING.
LOL
And from that UNDERSTANDING you now teach this BS.
LOL

What a Great Country America where those with UNDERSTANDING are held on a Higher Level than those with ACTUAL Real World Experiences and these Theorists are TEACHING The Real world Operators ?
Wagner, Aizik , Kanarek,to name a few, supported by Magazines such as Black Belt and BUDO, Blitz and others and given Credibility which is undeserved,which fools the consuming public.

I went to WR's classes on many occasion and attended a couple of his seminars,very nice materials,a compilation from many sources.

When WR Met Moni Aizik,he basically said that Moni skill level was WAY beyond JW's so WR studied and endorsed Moni's materials and wrote them up in Black Belt Magazine.

WR is always searching and came across ,then went and trained with Ray Floro.
WR returned and basically dropped everything else in wanting to learn and teach the Floro Knife system/style.
When last I saw WR about 18 months ago,he was fully into the Floro methods and is an instructor in the Floro system,he was only endorsing and teaching the Floro methods.

As said I have not seen him in a while .so he maybe into something else,but he goes forward never back,so I doubt he is endorsing anything of JW's.

JimH · « **Reply #6 on:** July 15, 2008, 05:52:41 PM »

JW saysThe Military with their realistic training is what would drive him in his future martial arts training.

Well in 1972 issue of Official Karate.
We see that there are articles on street confrontations and responses.(scenario training)
We see an article on how to respond in a fight while seated at a table.(scenario based training)
We see an article on how to respond to an attack while standing at a bar.(Scenario based training)

If we look at Tony Blauer and his Panic Attack Training system it was built around training in Realistic attacks as would be found on the street,1982.(Realistic scenario based training)

Jim Wagner's first "High Risk" article for Black Belt appeared in January of 1999

JW gives credit to Bruce Lee for the creation of Reality Based Self Defense.
quote JW
"I credit Bruce Lee’s Jeet Kune Do for pointing me in the right direction. However, Bruce Lee was a civilian and his training was limited to that realm. It was my military, corrections, and law enforcement career that opened my eyes to criminal and terrorist attack methods which were never really addressed in Jeet Kune Do or in my former traditional and sport-based systems.

Because it was not addressed in his JKD or former traditional and sport based systems I guess it did not exist in the world before ot until him.

JimH · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2009, 05:10:18 PM »

The BS that is out there of him as a Soldier,Prison guard,Cop,SWAT,Body Guard,dignitary Protection Officer,air Marshall and JKD Instructor is still what carries this guy through,along with his pal at Black Belt.

In 2009 he has been to expos with black Belt where people in the field have SUPPOSEDLY told of how they admire JW and his work.
He has even attended ,been recognized ,spoken on ,and or taught classes to the following:
Trexpro 2009
IWA 2009
European Police Conference in Germany March 2009

Either the people who run these things do not do the research and or they do not care.
They,by their association and recognition of him,give him credentials that he uses to sell himself to those out there that know no better and will spend the money to be taught by what is now seen as a TRUE FRAUD.

He left the Military after 5-6 months
He was a jailor in a primarily temp holding facility time guard facility with 16 beds.
He was a Mall Cop
He was Never on a front line SWAT (failed the qualification run)
Never a Military or Police QUALIFIED SNIPER
He was Never a Dignitary Protection Specialist
He rode a seat on a plane for 3 months,and in his own words "Never had an incident",yet now he has story after story on the Terrorists he rounded up and or spooked from terminals and aircraft.(Government trained anti terror specialist now)
He is a Staff Sergeant in the California State Militia,a one day a month volunteer group,he became that to get around the claims of fake military claims of being a SGT and a claim of stolen Valor as a military Fraud. This is the only reserve unit that NEVER goes to war.

He even has a picture up now in his Militia uniform with President Bush in the oval office.
He tells of talking with President Bush for 15 minutes and getting gifts.
The truth is he was part of a group,(a friend brought him along) as President Bush Thanked the group for sending letters to the troops.
He could have attended in a suit and tie ,yet he Uniformed up for the photo op.

Everything this guy does is to sell himself,and no matter what is written he is still held up and recognized by people to stupid to search for the truth.

Joe Hubbard · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2009, 03:34:36 AM »

shastana · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2009, 02:37:32 PM »

I think of RBSD roots from the non-military, non-police view as starting with Ka-ju-ken-bo after WWII. Those founders put together a street fighting system with some "scientific" approaches that to this day still ranks high as a reality self defense system. And...it is still evolving today. RBSD Roots run much deeper than the 70s and 80s?

This sounds very familiar to RBSD today, no?

Kajukenbo gained it's reputation for being brutally effective decades ago in the U.S. Territory of Hawaii. In the Hawaii of the 1940s the enemy was not the ancient battlefield soldier, it was the common street criminal. Instead of swords and spears he armed himself with knives, clubs, and guns. Even when unarmed he did not fight by any rules. He punched, kicked, gouged, bit, and stomped. If you encountered one of these brutal street fighters you were in for a life or death battle. Kajukenbo was designed to win such a battle.

I think Krav Maga is a close second, then Tony Blauer with Panic Attack (got an old panther prod video of his training back when) as a third. I can remember showing my kempo instructor the Panic attack vid and he shunned it due to its non-traditional approach. Ah how evolution pushes some forward and others backward.

I know there are a hundred other well-known and established military and law enforcement trainers who have since refined the RBSD world, and they all deserve respect.

So, how does Wagner match up to those who actually came before him? Doesn't look too good from here for him... $:-\$

my $.02

Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

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Author Topic: Jim Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based? (Read 5473 times)

Joe Hubbard

Jim Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?

Hock

Re: Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?

Nick Hughes

Re: Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?

Benjamin Liu

Re: Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?

JimH

Re: Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?

JimH

Re: Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?

JimH

Re: Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?

JimH

Re: Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?

Joe Hubbard

Re: Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?

shastana

Re: Wagner and who was 1st with Reality Based?