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[JimH]

Hi Elad,
quote Elad:
"you say that people here in the US can get information about moni but they can't in Israel, what do you mean people here in the US?"

Sorry that the above statement was confusing.

What I meant was you had said people in Israel WILL NOT speak about other Israelis,I find it very honorable but extreme ,especially in the case of Stolen Valor .
(Also Moni and others,if exaggerating their military service are still selling Israeli abilities so people are reluctant to stop them)

You had said people in the US  had a better chance of making an official claim for Information and that the information ,when applied for that way,would be replied to easier than if requested by another Israeli.

That is it,that is what I meant.

I would be interested to know if anyone out there trained with Moni in Canada BEFORE Wagner and Black Belt started Hyping Him?
(Moni's Canadian Club was opened in the mid 1980's and was called the "SAMURAI CLUB"
If so what were his claims about what was he teaching?
Did he make claims of Israeli Special Forces and of being among the few survivors of his units overwhelming destruction in the Golan Heights ?
or
Did he Just Teach Judo/Jujitsu and a Jujitsu based form of Self Defense?
(Did it become a Krav maga after the Israeli Courts said that ANY Martial art could be called krav maga?)
Isn't the Ruling on the Term Krav Maga why so many added Krav Maga to the new names of their styles,as well as to seperate them from the krav Maga being sold by Darren Levine?

Moni did not survive teaching Judo/Jujitsu and Self Defense for 15 years before he was in the Mags without people having talked to him or training with him,so if some one you know trained with him before Survival krav maga and Commando Krav maga came about then lets hear what was said by Moni in the early days.

I did come across this:
"Perhaps he can kill us all in two seconds, but Moni is not teaching Krav Maga." - Eyal Yanilov.

Again after the Israeli Court Ruling on the Term Krav Maga Can any art called Krav Maga be disputed?
What he teaches is not disputed and apparently can be legally called Commando Krav Maga.
It is the Commando Part which can be disputed if people with knowledge of the facts would say what they know in regards to his military claims.

It is amazing though to see the huge numbers of people From Traditional Krav Maga at Moni's Seminars and then to see them follow up and take his Instructor Certification Course.
His Course is Doable /Usable and would sell as Moni's krav maga without the Hyped up BS military claims.
 
Was it Moni's Idea or the Ideas of others who thought claims are just that claims to enhance for profit and do not effect those they STEAL VALOR from.


 

[Elad]

hi hock, give me a few days and i will get you contact information, is there an e-mail i can send it to you instead of puting it on the forum for now?

hi jim,

thanks for the explanation now i understand. i agree with you that it is too extreme that poeple will not talk, and it's not about honor as much as it is about the stigma of getting in trouble if things are proceded with officialy.

israel has been for to long a country where everyone helps each other out and scratches eahc others backs, many people have taken advantage of this  and that is why today you see almost every member of the israeli goverment under investigation for some sort of mis use of power or position. this includes using personal information for business purposes.

As for moni and canada, i know that he never used the name krav maga and never made the same military claims. He only called his system combat survival up untill the day he decided to start using krav maga.

As for the explanation of krav maga and it's name, this is a part of an article a freind of mine a krav maga instructor in the IDF wrote that explains:

"There is a misconception that the term Krav Maga is a generic term. This is not entirely accurate. When Israel was founded, it had only one system which was Krav Maga, the system’s name was very specific as the identifying name of Israel’s one and only official self-defense system. As time went on, the Israeli population was becoming familiar with the system of Krav Maga, mostly due to the fact that every Israeli citizen underwent mandatory military service and during their service underwent Krav Maga training. Israel had no other self defense systems, and therefore the entire Israeli population was accustomed to the fact that any self defense training that related to the Israeli culture was only Krav Maga. Although Krav Maga is a very specific system as far as strategy and tactics, the majority of the Israeli population are not Martial artists and do not continue their Krav Maga training after completing their military service and therefore are not capable of observing a martial arts system in action or a self defense session and be able to identify which martial art style is being demonstrated or used, or the system of which the techniques they are seeing originated from, and therefore automatically label the martial art action they are seeing as Krav Maga.

In short, it’s a double edged sword. Israel, since its first day in history and to this very day has only had one official self defense system which is Krav Maga. Krav Maga is the only system the majority of the Israeli population gets exposed to and therefore the term Krav Maga, even in the absence of enough background and experience to be able to physically identify the system, is the automatic term that the Israeli population use in their language to label self defense or hand-to-hand combat, however Krav Maga is a very specific and uniquely identifiable system.

This fact should not be confused for the inaccurate explanation some Israeli instructors have decided to use on the public that Krav Maga is both a generic term to label any and all forms of martial arts systems and that the system of Krav Maga is one with no specific strategies or tactics but rather a system that absorbs and uses all seemingly practical techniques. Anyone who is a Krav Maga practitioner should be able to quickly and easily identify and distinguish Krav Maga from other forms of Martial Arts just as a practitioner of Karate, or Tae Kwon Do, or Judo would be able to distinguish their system from the others systems."

The only reason moni decided to use the name krav maga is to confuse ever one into thinking that his system belongs to and is used by the IDF.

yes alot of poeple left tradidiotnal krav maga, but not because they discovered moni. 95% of all krav maga taught in the US is american krav maga, generated by the LA organization, wich is old krav maga very and limited in its material. then the big mess started with the trademark and israelis started comming out and sheding the light that real IDF krav maga is different, more modern and offers more, so many switch to systems like haganah mike kanarek, because he was advertising his system to be more advance and military like, but with out any lies or claims that his system was used by the IDF, then moni and avi showed up and decided to make themselvs the top of the latter with no need to go anywhere else, so they added the false claims not only about there backgrounds but that there systems were the official systems of the IDF and still used in the IDF and that they still taught the IDF. so there was more poeple leaving haganah and going to moni or kapap, but as busy as moni is giving courses as many poeple leave him after a while as they come.

lots of great information about why at this site:
http://www.commandokravmaga.com.au/

I don't think at all that moni invented the idea of lying to sell, i'm sure there have stories like moni and wagner long before! but, a person does not just start one day to tell lies, the person is a pathelogical lier all his life, liying is just a tool that they use and apply when it benefits them. Moni has had many complaints against for bad business practices long before commando krav maga even exited.

[ShooterMMA]

however Krav Maga is a very specific and uniquely identifiable system.

Anyone who is a Krav Maga practitioner should be able to quickly and easily identify and distinguish Krav Maga from other forms of Martial Arts

Krav Maga is specific self defense system, founded by Imi, so you can find KM only in line of Imi.
All the others who uses KM name for selling martial arts are fraud's.
Ex first KM man in IDF said, there is no CKM or Kapap in IDF, there is only KM, so I believe him.
CKM is mostly ju jitsu, wich is not KM.
US KM is basic old civi KM, and they for a very long time didnt have eny contact with Israel (bussines before knowledge  ). And they make bad reputation to KM with this only bussines, no quality atitude.

For me, CKM is not serious MA.
Israely KM is serious MA, and there is good knowledge in it.

 

[JimH]

I like the idea that krav Maga is seen as a singular line of Combat directly under Imi,but it is not.
Krav Maga since it has been repackaged from the Military to Civilian use technically means any form of H2H combat.
Krav Maga,the words,Mean Contact Fighting,it is not specific to any one person and or any one group be they Military or Civilian.
(We see evidence of that fact in Darren Levine and his attempts to Control/own the term Krav Maga)

Krav Maga in the Israeli Military is not technically a set ,standard art is it?
When they say they apply Krav Maga to the Isralei Special Forces is it technique based or is it a form of attack in which the target/victim is required to respond in some fashion to the attacker/s and fight ,in any way possible,to survive the attack?
This is just combat aggression training isn't it,not specific response drills with specific technique to a given attack,is it?

Not dissimilar to Milling in the British Forces or to the concept of what GBJJ is supposed to accomplish in the US Army.

[Elad]

hello jim,

I am sorry but your greatly misinformed about krav maga.

krav maga in the IDF is nothing related to Darren Levine's system. If I was to suddenly try to trademark the name karate for my own system, wich translated is 'the way of the fist', does that mean i'm free to make it into a general concept as long i just find different ways of using my fists?

Krav maga was named krav maga/contact combat because it is the method and skill of skillfuly and tacticly making contact with your enemy with empty hands or with cold weapons. That is the name it is not a specified term use to create the standards and rules of how krav maga will be.

Krav maga has never been repackage from the military to civilian. when Imi left the army and created the ikma, he taught krav maga to civilians with leaving out things that are only meant for military use, also that was in 81, krav maga has been modernise and improved since like every single other system with time.

Krav maga in the IDF is a specific system, with very specific techniques and strategies and a standard. Every krav maga instructor in the IDF have to have a martial arts background of some sort, many of them have karate, or kung fu etc, backgrounds, but they are not allowed to use anything from any of there background styles other the krav maga techniques. combat agression training is PART of krav maga training with other specific drils used to develope a combat mind.

even if you do not like what darren levine does, the system he teaches is krav maga, what moni aizik does has 0% to do with anything that relates to krav maga, not techniques, not standards, not principles, and not the way of thinking.

[Wizard]

Elad,

I'm really not up for this whole debate/discussion and not knowledgeable enough about it to contribute or respond much to what you write.  Two quick thoughts:

1.  With so many opinions out there about what KM is and is not, what it means and does not mean, how is it that Jim can be fully mistaken?  Why is it that your definition (and others', I'm sure) is the "correct" one?  Rhetorical question.

2.  Your last comment on Moni' stuff being 0% KM is not, based on what I've trained in Levine's version and Haganah, correct.  I have never met Moni but thoroughly enjoy the materials.  And we certainly use many concepts and techniques that I was taught in other Israeli-based (or named) arts.  I certainly see the ju jitsu/judo differences, no doubt, in Moni's stuff.  But it is not void of all other KM stuff, at least the way we train it.

Hopefully all this (his background/claims) will be cleared up on an official basis sometime soon.  For now, since it ain't costing me anything, I'll keep training it along with my new found interest in Hock and his materials.


Nuff of this discussion for now,
Wizard

[JimH]

The discussion on the misuse of Military claims and STOLEN Valor has become a discussion on the Realities and what is thought to be Actual Krav Maga.

Is the Krav Maga,Contact Fighting,techniques of the Israeli Military the Same as they were when taught by Imi?
or
Have they Changed?
Been added to and or changed in any way?

If they have changed ,which they have,then the whole discussion of what is and or is not TRUE Krav Maga is mute.

IDF Instructors with various backgrounds in other arts HAVE Changed Krav Maga over the Last 60 years of use.

Imi himself altered what was taught to the military when he switched to teaching the Civilian version.
Yet people make claim that the Materials are the same ,just without firearms.

Krav Maga is not just a martial art it is also a Fitness training use art ,meaning they use it as a means to get people into shape.
The same as H2H in the militaries around the world are used.
This is why the Majority of Krav maga Instructors teach a Large Part of the Class with Martial art related and solo training exercises,not dissimilar from Tae Bo.

I have trained in Krav Maga with Rhon Mizrachi and found it to be not unlike traditional TKD or Karate.
I have been told that Rhon Is OLD School Krav Maga and has not changed his art to keep up with the times.
Rhon was trained by Haim Zut who was a First Generation Student of Imi.
So Krav maga Has Changed over the years,and people who teach it AS ORIGINALLY taught are called Old style.

http://www.kravmagafederation.com/Rhon-Mizrachi.html


As said,Krav Maga is a tool for building a Military/Aggressive Mindset as H2H is used for most Military units.

Here is a quote from a friend of mine Currently Serving in the Israeli Special Forces.

"In the army there little to no chance of regular hand to hand combat so they use the 'krav maga' (no official style really, thats just the most applicable name) more to develope endurance (physical and mental) and aggression in the soldiers."

Used to build Physical and Mental Agression.

As No One Owns the Term Krav Maga, Moni and the MANY Others are entitled to name their arts what ever they want and Add Krav Maga on if they decide.
(Like the Various forms of Karate out there)

Again the thread is about Moni's claims of Special Operations membership,and use of that claim to sell his art,not about what he teaches.

Since I have trained with Moni I can say that his what he teaches is usable on the Street and on the Battlefield.
Simple Basic hit them ,hurt them,Jujitsu based materials,not unlike those who used Jujitsu based materials in WWII (FAS) or the US Marine Corps or the US Army Special Forces.

If he DID NOT Serve in the Israeli Special Forces and was not among a handful of Survivors of a Deadly engagement in the Golan Heights then he is misleading people as to the way his art came about.
Stealing the Valor of the Brave and the Dead

I do not have a problem with what Moni teaches,as I do not have a problem with what Wagner teaches.

I DO Have a problem when people use the TRUELY Brave Men and Women who put their Butts in Harms way Every Day serving in the Militray,Police or other jobs in which their lives could be ended in a second while trying to do a job to help someone else,and thses people hype up a BS Bio to make money.

If the materials these men teach is indeed good then selling it does not require the BS Hype.

[ShooterMMA]

Moni misuse his mil bckground and origins of his CKM. So its double.

Even in BJJ techniques r changin every year, does it meens its not BJJ eny more?

Yes KM was changed (evolved), but in line of KM principles, again in line of Imi's principles.

About fitness and tae bo, yes maybe in U$ (thank u Daren).

Yes KM is tool, but also set of principles, and set of techniques, and also mindset.

There r KM instructors in IDF, and they must paste KM course, Elad knows this better. Shahar knows this even better, because he was instructor of instructors.
Even Ran, excelent boxer, show KM technicques and some KM tools on TV show.
All this guys r in line of Imi.

Yes its about what Moni sells, and he sell his handmade and developed, only can b used in SF, one and only CKM. (not that retard old KM), and for all of this he uses his rich military comand background!

If someone like ju jitsu, thats fine, but dont sell it as KM.

[Elad]

hi everyone,

Hock, where in the US is your friend, the attorney living and is he a private or government attorney?

wizard,

"With so many opinions out there about what KM is and is not, what it means and does not mean, how is it that Jim can be fully mistaken?  Why is it that your definition (and others', I'm sure) is the "correct" one?  Rhetorical question."

in the US, they are opinions, in israel, they are facts. there are so many opinions outside of israel thanks to poeple like moni that have spent years filling the market with false information that it creates a different image of what is real.

to answer your question, and with absolutely no disrespect to JimH, i'm sure he is a very experienced professional and martial artist but, i have been in israeli military and civilian krav maga for 25 years, i was an officer in the israeli special forces, an official krav maga instructors in the israeli special forces and still teach in the israeli special forces as part of my reserve duty. Where in israel did Jim serve and where in the israel was he a krav maga instructor?

Jim makes his opinion by what he sees from third parties, like his instructor ron and from what he allows himself to beleve in advertisements like from moni. and i'm sure that what he beleves makes sense to him, but he has no facts from being involved in krav maga from its original source, Imi and the IDF.

Jim,

i agree that this post should stay on moni and jim wagner and ther false advertising, i will only make a last comment on krav maga simply to give you some more information to make a better assesment and hopefuly understand.


"Is the Krav Maga,Contact Fighting,techniques of the Israeli Military the Same as they were when taught by Imi?
or
Have they Changed?"

I think you will agree with me, that there is no martial art system exists today that did not make changes to its system.

karate, judo, tae kwon do, kung fu, jujitsu and so on.....every single system in time make realizations that all of a sudden there is a better way to do a technique or a better technique to add, or they have to make changes to adapt to the changing world. But, every single system even while making changes stays with its principles, srtucture, and base. no matter how many changes any of the systems have made over the years, any martial artist can still look at karate and know it is karate, or kung fu and know it is kung fu.

It is the exact same thing with krav maga. krav maga is a system, it is a system with its own philosophy, structure, base, and way of doing things. over the years adaptations have been made to krav maga, some new techniques have been put in, for example like almost every system years ago no one dealt with fighitng on the ground, today everyone added that and so did krav maga. But no matter what the changes any one that knows what krav maga is and is experienced in krav maga can recognize it when they see it because of the techniques and the principles. Moni's system commando krav maga, is not based on krav maga techniques or principles. Of course there are little things in his system that are from krav maga, he built his own system and took things from all over that fits his opinion of what is effective.

karate uses a shuto, knife hand chop, but so does taekwon do, so does that mean that taekwon do is karate? or that a tae kwon do man can say that he does karate if he feels like it?

"IDF Instructors with various backgrounds in other arts HAVE Changed Krav Maga over the Last 60 years of use."

NO IDF instructors with other backgrounds have ever changed krav maga
in the IDF!

Imi set the standard for what his system is in conjunction with the needs, standards and approval of the IDF from 1948 to 1968. When Imi retired from the army he appointed Eli avikzar to replace him, Eli was Imi's student for over 30 years. Eli took over from 1968 to 1981, when Eli retired Boaz aviram was appointed to replace him, he was also a long time student of IMI and of Haim Gidon, one of Imi's original students. In 1983 Boaz retired and was replaced by Ilan Yona untill 1985, and then shachar took over. Shachar, also one of Imi's original students since he was a kid, was in charge of krav maga untill 2007, and was then replaced by Ran Nakash that left the army just 1 month ago. Today in charge of krav maga for the IDF at wingate is sergeant major Ilya, a student of Eyal Yanilov and for the special forces is sergeant major Nir, a student of Haim Gidon.

In 60 years of the IDF there have only been 7 people in charge of krav maga teaching, standards, and principles, all 7 ARE direct from Imi line of krav maga. The one that is in charge is the one that recommends the person that will replace him, to make sure that that krav maga department stays the way Imi created it and the system stays the way it was meant to and commissioned to.

Those are the heads of krav maga for the IDF. There are many instructors. To be an instructor you have to have a martial arts background and it does not have to be krav maga. You have to have a long enough background to make sure that the instructor will be able to learn the krav maga techniques and principles during his krav maga instructor course and will be able to teach better. The instructors don't have authorization to make any changes, and are not allowed to teach or show anything other than what they are taught in the course and are certified to teach in the course.

"Imi himself altered what was taught to the military when he switched to teaching the Civilian version.
Yet people make claim that the Materials are the same ,just without firearms."

The system is the same, the principles are the same, only some techinques are different.


"As said,Krav Maga is a tool for building a Military/Aggressive Mindset as H2H is used for most Military units."

Krav maga is not a tool for building agressive mindset. aggressive mindset is a tool of krav maga.

To be effective in combat you need to perfect physicaly and mentaly on top of having techniques. Krav maga works on developing a soldier/student to be physicaly and mentaly tough, strong, and conditioned. Within krav maga there are specific drills and exercise used to build the aggressive mindset.

""In the army there little to no chance of regular hand to hand combat so they use the 'krav maga' (no official style really, thats just the most applicable name) more to develope endurance (physical and mental) and aggression in the soldiers."

with all respect to your friend, he may be in our special forces, but he is not in a counter-terror unit. He is probably in a recon unit, or an observation unit, or a demolition unit. Do you know which unit he serves in? and he obviously has no krav maga background.

Those type units are more like conventional infantry with specialized tasks. They do not engage enemys in close quarters. The training they receive is also more like the infantry, where yes, there is very little focus on teaching them how to actualy fight, and disarm weapons and more on the mental mindset with minimal techniques. this is beacuse their training is shorter and like i said it is very unlikely they will engage in face to face combat.

Also, yes what he says is correct that in general in any army there is very little chance of hand to hand combat, but not in israel. We average a war every 10 years, and a war is mostly conventional so there's little close quarters fighting. However in between our war seasons, israel is always in a state of low intensity conflict fighting terror. counter-terro has several elements to it, but mostly of it is close quarters. we have units here that only task is to go undercover into arab towns with no more than a handgun hidden on them and to catch terrorists.

The amount and type of krav maga training they get is nothing but techniques on how to fight, how to disarm, how to control and so on.

So again, people like moni aizik, that never served in the special forces and especialy in a counter-terror unit like he says, or that were not instructors in the special forces don't know the truth of what we do, and that is why they advertise things that are based on what they think, which is almost always wrong, and then lead people like you to not understand what is real.


I am not going to judge or say my opinion on what moni teaches,i don't care, i have been in martial arts for very long of course i have my opinions. but that is not the reason i am here, and bottom line if it works for you, than great, you should train in it so that hopfully it will save in an attack. I respect everyone here and there opinions, i only want to help you all understand the truth.

[JimH]

Elad,
I agree with you in that I have never Been to Israel,Never Been in the Israeli Military and Have Not Studied Krav Maga as taught in Israel.

But

If people SAY Krav Maga is Krav Maga and that what is taught in Israel as Krav Maga is the same as what is Taught elsewhere as Krav Maga,then how is the Krav Maga I studied under a Second Generation instructor Under Imi,his Instructor BEING the Highest Ranked Krav Maga Instructor In Israel ,different than Krav Maga Taught In Israel?

That is like the People who insist to learn Karate or Hapkido,One should return to the country of origin to find and experience the Different atmosphere of training.

I have studied with Rhoon,the Highest Ranking Instructor in the US (I put up his Bio).
I have studied with Moni,something few who talk about him have done.
I have attended a Seminar with Mike Kanarek  and have talked to him about his art and the Israeli Military.
I have attended Seminars by Israeli Counter Terrorism Experts who came to NY from Israel after 9/11.
I have friends SERVING In Israeli Special Forces who agree with my points (I have put up a written quote by One serving in the Orev Unit).

Now I agree this is not First Hand Knowledge from Imi and it is not done in Israel but it is also not training far removed from the source so I have a basic idea as to what I am speaking of,it is all not read from a forum or KM sites.

I agree with your points,you say you are in Israel,In Special Forces and Active in Krav Maga,so I defer to your First Hand Knowledge,but even first hand knowledge can be skewed if one looks at a certain subject a certain way long enough.

I have nothing to gain from being for or against Krav Maga.
It serves the purposes it is intended for,to provide bodily striking tools that can be used in an aggressive manner against an enemy.
It does what it is intended to do so it is useful.

Other than that my discussion of Krav Maga is just that discussion with me giving My Opinion.

I have also given my Opinion Of Combat Survival Krav Maga and of Moni as I found him to be in talking with,working with and being instructed by him.

Again ,we have gotten into a Krav Maga discussion when the supposed subject is Moni Aizik and his Special Forces claims and his development of his system.
But
This discussion can take place about most who claim to teach an Israeli art as almost ALL Claim being in Israeli Special forces.
almost all Claim to have Instructed the Israeli Special Forces:
People Like Avi Nardia
Dennis Hanover
Mike Erez
Mike Kanarek
Others

Again this can only be cleared up by people in Israel or by people with contacts in Israel who will provide accurate ,non biased ,answers.

[ShooterMMA]

Again this can only be cleared up by people in Israel or by people with contacts in Israel who will provide accurate ,non biased ,answers.

So, Elad is doing that on this forum , Nir is doing same on other forums, and they are from Israel, and they are in military.
Somehow even I also have some first hand info.
 
All of this time Elad is trying to explain situation in IL, so where is the problem?
Even you quote Eyal: Moni dont teach Krav Maga.

And thats the truth. No more no less!!

p.s. it's good to here that Ilja is in charge for KM in IDF! He is a great guy.

[JimH]

Shooter,
I did not start this thread.
It was asked if anyone had contact with Black Belt over Wagner and what about Moni,as People in Israel questioned Black Belt about him and got blown off.

I am all for the truth.

I am not defending the claims of Wagner,Moni or any others.

Elad is giving what to him are the facts.

Elad says Israel and its Military  will not step in,but they might if questions on Moni came from outside of Israel.
I have asked many people with No Results.
Not Being In Israel provides No answers to Elad and those inside,nor to those who question people from the outside.

If Elad Passes on the information to Hock as he said then perhaps others can get the answers Elad,others in Israel,others outside of Israel would like and I would like.

Until then the Information passed is Hear Say.

My point on Krav maga and its usage as a Generic term for a Martial art is just to point out that MANY Say Krav Maga is a Generic meaning for Close Combat fighting.
If it is Generic then others can claim it as a name used as ,or with, their art.

Elad says it is a specific art with specific tools,technique and usage,Others disagree.

If Krav Maga is Generic and is as usable as KARATE as a Generic term then anyone using the term is allowed to do so.

If it is NOT a Generic term then the Israeli Leadership at Wingate should clarify it.
(Hasn't sole authority for promotions for Krav Maga been removed from Wingate?
If So why was authority for Sole Control Removed?
Who else is issued Authority to promote in Krav Maga)

Again,I am NOT in Krav Maga so I have No Stake in wether it is Generic or Specific.
Another Issue for Israeli Practitioners and Krav Maga Practitioners to straighten out.

[Elad]

hi Jim,

i think that the reason there is all this confusion about what is the real krav maga is because today krav maga exist in 2 forms, the IDF for and the civilian world form. Everything that i am saying here, i am talking as a military man, and military krav maga man. that is the point that i am defending. In the IDF, from day 1 of krav maga untill today, there is absolutely no question as to what krav maga is, what it looks like, and who the authority of krav maga is.

In the civilian world all of that is diferent, because of so many organizations, instructors with different time line of learning and teaching, and putting in their own opinion or experiences of what they think krav maga should be, and of course, not to forget the poeple like moni and avi that try to change the image of what is realy done in the IDF for their own benfit.

so i am not arguing with you, you are not mistaken on all the things you say if we are talking about krav maga in the civilian world. I am only talking and representing krav maga as it is in the IDF and as it is as the official IDF system.

"If it is NOT a Generic term then the Israeli Leadership at Wingate should clarify it.
(Hasn't sole authority for promotions for Krav Maga been removed from Wingate?
If So why was authority for Sole Control Removed?
Who else is issued Authority to promote in Krav Maga)"

just 1 thing, i do not understand what you mean by saying this? what do you mean by authority for promotions and sole control?

ShooterMMA,

mi efo ata?

leitraot

[JimH]

quote JimH
"If it is NOT a Generic term then the Israeli Leadership at Wingate should clarify it.
(Hasn't sole authority for promotions for Krav Maga been removed from Wingate?
If So why was authority for Sole Control Removed?
Who else is issued Authority to promote in Krav Maga)"

Elad,
What I mean by this is that years ago Wingate was the Sole entity for Krav Maga.
One had to Go to Wingate from where ever in the world to be promoted to Black Belt or Higher or to become a Certified Instructor.
When I trained with Rhoon in NYC,Rhoon traveled back to Israel and to Wingate frequently and when he had Instructors ready for Black Belt they went to Wingate to test and get promoted.

From my Understanding:
Outside Krav Maga Groups filed a petition,in Israel, to remove the Power/Sole Authority of Wingate and won a judgement that stated that Wingate was NO LONGER The Singular controlling force of Krav Maga.
That Krav Maga Groups COULD Self Promote and rank WITHOUT authority having to come from Wingate.

[Elad]

Hi Jim,

krav maga was was officialy created in the IDF by Imi. It belonged to the IDF.

In 1959 the israeli ministry of defense enacted a new law called the israeli defense act of 1959, that still stand today. this law was to help protect everything israel used to defend it's country, even today every soldier when they get drafted signe a 'contract' with the IDF, part of this contract they sign to agree to the terms of the israeli defense act of 1959 wich means they will not share or disclose anything they learn in the army with anyone outside of the army.

when Imi retired from the IDF in 1968, he wanted to teach krav maga all over thre world, but krav maga now belonged to the IDF. He made a request from the ministary of defense to allow him to teach krav maga outside the army and use the name. He was granted permission with terms, like today if an israeli wants to teach courses based on military or security outside of israel, the government reviews what they want to teach and to who they want to teach. They always allow them to teach as long as they remove any material that has a security clearance level of confidential or higher.

Imi was given permission, as long as what he taught did not contain material specific to the army, and he started the IKMA. Thanks to Imi, and only Imi, krav maga became israeli's national self defense system. The army was still in control and owned krav maga as it related to the army.

So the army/wingate, never released or gave up control of krav maga, till today they still own and control krav maga, again as it relates to the army.

In the early 80's, Imi's original srudents, like haim, eyal, and eli, grew up and decided to start teahcing on there own. so they created their own organizations under the guidance of Imi. In the 90's, when krav maga got trademarked in the states, eyal tried to trademark it in israel to try to prevent outside people like darren to trademark it also in israel.

the trademark was not authorized in israel for one main reason. Krav maga belonged to the IDF, and if someone was to trademark it, they can be in a positon to cause problems to army and it's krav maga department.

when you talk about people being sent to israel to be certificied in krav maga, you have to understand how it works. No body is allowed to come and get certified as a militayr krav maga instructor unless they are in the army and going to be instructors. Wingate today is a civilian educational intitution, a person that gets certified as an instructor thorugh wingate, does not get certifiied as a krav maga instructor, they get certified as a martial arts coach. The course is not a krav maga course. Everyone that is in the course has different backgrounds, from karate to kung fu to krav maga and so on.

during the course, there are portions where you have to prepare lesson plans and teach to the rest of the classe. so if you for example are a karate man, the techniques you will teach the class will be karate, but you are evaluated on the principles of teaching and coaching that they are teaching you when you teach your lesson plan. the course dos not teach you krav maga, it teahces you anatomy, teaching and coaching skills, how to prepare courses and lesson plans and things like that.

That is the only type of certificate that wingate gives someone tat comes there to take the course, a coach certificate in martial arts.

when you say Rhon 'sent people' to israel to do the black belt teats, he did not send them to wingate, that does not exist, he sent them to haim zut his instructor and his organization for the test. Just like students of eyal they go to eyals organization in israel to get their instructor certificate.

Jim tomorrow if you start your own jujitsu club/organization you can give people certificates and belts. Eyal, haim gidon, haim zut, all of these people created their own organizations (with the exeption of haim gidon that took over Imi's organization IKMA) and they are the offical governing body of that organization, when theyr students get certified as black belt instructor they are certified in that private organization, not in wingate. Eyal, haim gidon and haim zut after can send ther black belt instructors to wingate to get a coaching certificate.