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[Professor]

Thanks for the washover boys...I think there is a bigger picture and it isn't that simple.

Freedom is not free, yes I agree. But mandatory anything, especially implemented by gvt. is the opposite of freedom.  Define Freedom, punch it in to Dictionary.com.
Interesting that the dictionary paints a very different picture.

Mandatory nothing!  Cry Freedom! 


Back to the Wild West!   

Not need for laws -  that creates a for mandatory behavior pattern.    Allow me my freedom.



We live in a democracy with a need for law and order.    Freedom is not free.   Mandatory is sometime needed to have everyone live together in a democracy. 

[Milldog1776]

That's a slippery slope Professor, and I hope you are not serious.

Laws and regulations are not the same as mandatory indentured service. Not even close...good try though.

[Kentbob]

A very slippery slope indeed, and I honestly can't believe I'm hearing this from you. 

I don't know who to attribute this quote too, but "When men grow most corrupt, the laws of men multiply."  I don't even know that that is the full quote.  Slave society indeed...everyone should have the constitutional right to perform some sort of civil service...no one should be forced.  In that same vein, everyone should have the right to starve to death.

Robert Heinlein (again) once said that he favored reducing government just to internal courts.  We don't need a law punishing people for every little thing, or requiring people to be in compliance with every little whim.  We certainly don't need laws for 50% or more of the things we have laws for, nor do we need 50% of the lawmakers who come up with them.


Kent

[Scott]

Obama's proposed service will suffer from a lack of funding.
http://www.slate.com/id/2102433

[Professor]

I live on slippery slopes with my ice climbing boots.   I'm a professor

Slippery slopes are easy to overcome with common sense, but so is mandatory service.

[Milldog1776]

I live on slippery slopes with my ice climbing boots.   I'm a professor

Slippery slopes are easy to overcome with common sense, but so is mandatory service.

You make that comment as if to say you are somehow superior to us who disagree with you.

[Professor]

Let me put on my lecture shoes (available to all professors) and I'll give you a stop gap to this slippery slope that concerns you:

If you want a single service from the government (which are paid by someone), serve the government -- therefore, other US citizens.  Serve in the military, service in a civic office, serve by paying your taxes (I can continue with example of service...)




Slippery slope: But, taxes are not in indentured servitude --  Bullshit.


Here are some stats for you:  

We work, in the US, until about April 30th to pay off our taxes --

Breaking that 120 days down, the Tax Foundation estimates it will take:

    * 43 days of work to pay off federal, state and local income taxes
    * 30 days to pay off payroll taxes (for Social Security and Medicare)
    * 16 days to pay off sales and excise taxes
    * 14 days to pay off corporate income taxes (This assumes that a tax on a business is passed on to its customers, employees and shareholders in terms of higher prices, lower paychecks and less shareholder value.)
    * 12 days to pay off property taxes
    * 4 days to pay off other taxes (e.g., customs duties)
    * 1 day to pay off estate and gift taxes


Now, tell me this is not indentured servitude.  Taxes are your slippery slope.    

Give me the model to how we function with essential human service (including a voluntary military) without an American in servitude.

Freedom is not free.

                              --- thus endth the lecture.

[Professor]

No Keith, only that I'm fine with living on a slippery slope.   There are a arguments that are not simply black and white answers.   

I'm a very conservative republic with an inherent respect for those that serve.   I do believe in human services -- take a look at other countries around the world and it will become clear why they are needed.

Service is not evil.  Indentured servitude can be very good for some and very bad for others.   -- there's a last statement that will send some up the walls.   No problem, we can discuss.  I live on slippery slopes.

[Kentbob]

And yet, if you force someone to do work that they don't want to do, that is slavery.  If you take money from me, and spend it in ways that I would choose not to spend it, that is theft. 

Indentured Servitude has long been a euphemism for debt bondage.  TRUE indentured servitude, with a binding contract, that does not allow for a debt to be bought and sold, is not such a bad system.  It doesn't matter what sort of pretty language you dress it up in, Prof, forcing people to work has been, historically, the first step on the way to a socialist/communist/fascist regime. 

Service itself is not evil.  Forced servitude is evil.  I'm not a fan of being forced to pay taxes.  People complain about budget shortfalls, on the news yesterday the governors of the 50 states met with Obama to petition for infrastructure projects, in order to help their lagging state economies.  Are these governors proposing cutting their salaries?  Cutting the salaries of the state legislature?  What about the national legislature, how come we don't cut their salary? 

Forced servitued, whatever you want to call it, is a recipe for ruin.  And let's not forget to ask, in these times of economic shortfalls, where is the money for these workers going to come from?  What about money for there supervisors?  What about when these people decide that they like the government, and want to continue working there?  Is our government going to hire them?  Money for training programs?  equipment?  gas?  You're talking about a huge monetary layout, in addition to the abhorrent concept of slavery.  I will not now support this, nor will I ever support this, or a military draft.  I don't support taxes, since most of that money is wasted on frivolous ideas.  I love my country, and I'll serve my country for as long as I can, but I have no illusions about whether or not the government serves me, or whether it will ever again serve the people of the country.  That goes for local, county, state, or federal government. 

Kent

[arnold]

Nuke plants are great, but take longer to bring on line than coal or gas fired. And as for mandatory service, if you want help from the government, then work for it. No more free rides. Unless of course it is on a cool Italian motorcycle with a sweet young thing with big knockers sitting behind you. Ahh memories, ahh youth, ahh Schlitz!

[Kentbob]

Nuke plants are great, but take longer to bring on line than coal or gas fired. And as for mandatory service, if you want help from the government, then work for it. No more free rides. Unless of course it is on a cool Italian motorcycle with a sweet young thing with big knockers sitting behind you. Ahh memories, ahh youth, ahh Schlitz!

So, damn the cost in the long run, as long as we get our electricity in the short run?  That's not the kind of thinking that benefits us in the end.  It may take longer, but the payoff is increased efficiency (and pissed off hippies).  Coal, natural gas, oil, these are not the ideas that are going to be of benefit to anyone but the coal, oil, and natural gas companies.  Nuclear power has proven itself to be cheaper in the long run (as long as idiots aren't at the switch a la 3MI), as well as cleaner.  Denier or crier of global warming, having cleaner energy seems to me a plus, no matter what side of the fence you're on.


Kent