Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hock]

Beware the Over-Established Knife Attack Template.
Templates that slash or stab two, three or more specific targets. Those follow-up targets probably will not be where you expect them.

2 Quick Reasons

Reason 1) Bodies move instantly
Your number 3 target on a templete is gone after stabbing your number 1 target, or slashing 9 o'clock to 6 o'clcok. Bodies move after being stabbed and slashed. Now, if the templete was based solely on learning your own knife manipulation and explained thusly? Okay and maybe call it somehting else less misleading. (I use "Solo Command and Mastery") But when they try to sell it is an attack pattern directly related to and predicting victim wounds and reality follow-up movement?  Sorry. No. Improper doctrine. Problem is? People move, especially after being cut or stabbed.
    We wont even bring up the subject of the enemy reflexively using his arms to block and defend against your knife attack furither screwing up template patterns. Arms get in the way!

           ...and speaking of ther hands? Point 2...

Reason 2) What is your other hand doing?
In some knife systems, when you work these templetes they demand that your other free hand drop dead and lay dormant by your side. This creates HORRIBLE muscle memory. Did I say HORRIBLE! They claim, "Stop swatting at flies (ho-ho) we'll have plenty for that arm to do later. " It may well be too late. Imagine telling a boxer to practice a jab hundreds and hundreds of times, while ordering them to drop their cross arm down dead while jabbing.  After a short while, when you jab? Your other arm will drop. (This too is the curse of many karate systems who insist on carrying their other fist on their hip) Its the scence of muscle-memory repetition training.
Read   http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/howmanyreps/?index.htm


My basic, templatic summary.
  1 - People bleed.
  2 - Everybody may bleed out faster or slower than expected. Overkill needed.
  3 - Knife cuts a main blood line. People bleed pretty good. May not- not so good.
  4 - Man see his own blood? Man often scream. Heart beat faster. More blood.
       Man no see blood? Him keep fighting.
  5 - Knife in eye? Bad for man.
  6 - Knife in heart? Bad for man.
  7 - Knife cut Muscle? Bad, but man not done.
  8 - Knife cut neck? Bad for man.
  9 - Cothing gets in way? Make clothing red.
  10 -Following and over-memorizing templete movements? It does not maximize training
  11 -Templetes move around like crazy. Explain this. The movements are about your
        arm, not his body.

Doc Hock

[MarineWar1]

It has always been my understanding that when we would learn the basic 12 angles that that's what they were, just to work angles, not specific targets. Where do these templates come from  

[Hock]

Many systems use these formal templetes.
I don't use those Filipino 12 angles hardly at all.

I completely use the 4 corners and 12 numbers of combat clock points now...
Scroll down about mid-way, to September 11th entry, on this page for a giant picture
http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/09-08/index.htm

That photo and related text explains more and better...

Hock

[D. McLemore]

  Historically, those templates or angles have been around quite some time. Even dating back to the 14th & 15th centuries. You'll find them in many of the historic manuals.  There are examples of them being numbered many ways. While there is always some group that tend to make 'cults' out of these things and cutting the angles an 'end' within themselves not unlike some of the FMA drills, these are templates that represent only a  way to communicate or language if you will. They are nothing more than training aids, that's all. I sort of put them in the category like firing on a known-distance range. Its a means to learning how the weapon performs and only a stepping stone to the more tactical approaches. I personally like to use these things in the form of wall and floor charts , they are cool, easy to teach from and do a lot for imprinting concepts into the beginner's mind.  They have thier place but....BUT.....they are not the goal and should be put on the shelf at the right time and place.

All My Best
Dwight

[Benjamin Liu]

It has always been my understanding that when we would learn the basic 12 angles that that's what they were, just to work angles, not specific targets. Where do these templates come from  

I was told in my first FMA class that the 12 angles come from the weak points in Spanish armor. 

I don't see the problem with practicing them, it is not as if you will always do #2 right after #1, it is a good idea to mix them up after you learn them so you can do them in any order.  The strikes are also pretty much mirror images of each other so they really are only 6 strikes to learn.

[Hock]

Thee only sticklier comes when there are two or more stikes in an exercise pattern and the course/instructor automatcalically leads the student on to believing that  the intended second or third targets will be right there on the flat templete. This is sort of an unintended consequence of too much templete training.

Only acting out a series of strikes with a good actor/partner, or maybe observing  numerous real life examples, can we plan realistic follow-ups for second and third strikes. Such observations can be found in films of firearms shootings, or the art of boxing, where millions of experiences have been easily recorded. Responses can be somewhat predicted. Then you can say

                          "your uppercut USUALLY opens up over here...."

Once Remy told me, and I paraphrase....

     "De' strike is about the arm movement. Not the target. You cannot always tell
         that the downward strike number 12 will hit the forehead. It could hit the forearm.
         You do not know where the body will be. It could hit the back of a man down on
         the ground."

Which set me to thinking that these angles of attack are REALLY about mastering the arm delivery not mastering strikes at targets.

From a doctrine perspective, attaching a strike/delivery to a specific target- such as say...certain Filipino angles right to the eye, and attaching mutliple strikes to a series of targets, without the proper "not flat, dead target" research are cause and effect connections that are misleading and abstract.

Enemy reponses can be like a crap shoot under mutliple attacks. Within reason, but still crazy. Its good to explain this in Class 1 and remind them of this through class 1,000.

Hock
www.CombatCentric.com

[Hock]

Scientists are always trying to “reduce things down to its bare “reduce-ability” in their pursuits. And sports trainers have been doing the same for physical performance improvements. Specialists try to identify and isolate the steps of physical action in such a way as to improve the individual cogs and gears, to later improve the overall “stopwatch.”

This really is the subject of an entire thread or study.

But ALWAYS reducing things down to its most single action can get counter-productive. Lets talk about this in universal terms. The boxer’s jab and cross. Boxers, MMA and kick-boxers work the jab in isolation, which is fine because the jab is often thrown in complete isolation and not always in combinations. Still, the boxer will properly lift his other hand to protect himself when throwing the jab and this becomes part and parcel of the jab process. One act. He does not let his other hand and arm drop lifelessly to his side, as mentioned in the prior, improper knife training method. This would create unsafe muscle memory, as the most punch-drunk, boxing coach will inform you, or even a high school gym teacher these days. 

But what about, say walking or swimming? Can you really improve the act of walking by isolation? By making a student say...hop on one leg? (we will only make a better hopper) Can you improve the swimmer by making her swim one month with the right arm only, the next month with the left arm only?  Sure, sure, sure...we might sit the swimmer down at a cable machine and do a little single arm muscle development, but not too much.

The end product is the coordinated, smooth performance of both arms or legs in conjunction when reducng some actions down to their unreduce-able. Some things really cannot be reduced beyond common sense.

A trainer properly schooled in human movement, medicine and psychology should identify what can and cannot be reduced and isolated, and what acts are actually multiple steps blended together.  Some things can be isolated and some can’t.

Hock
www.CombatCentric.com

[whitewolf]

Hock=good information-sense I never really had any formal knife fighting instruction this makes sense-also will you be covering any of this 7/8 March in Maridean?

I assume also that your thoughts here apply to regular hand to hand self defense without a hand held weapon if I read this right.

Along with this I would see that speed  and more than one strike at a time plays a important part here-one strike and no follow up would give the other opponent chance to attack instead of block-Yes?

With so much on the internet about knife fighting and a million ways to atttack/defend it is hard to define what is good and what will get you killed.......

Please keep up the pertinent information-

Whitewolf (ELB)

[Hock]

Relates to all physical training...baseball..everything..

In Meridian, MS...I am told it will be a lot about the tactical baton/stick and then also knife. We kind of cycle though themes there because I go through there every 7 or so months and we can dedicate good blocks of time to subjects.

Hock

[Dawg]

Pain relief!

How much more motivation does one need for a road trip!?

Note to training partners:
You need to hurry up and heal those injuries; July will be here before you know it. (Hippy Boy and Tank; yes, this is for YOU!)

Who luvs ya, baby?

[sarguy]

Good conceptual lessons here. I recently found myself calling the strikes by the target, not the arm movement.

(employing the dark arts of thread necromancy...Arise! Rise, and go forth to clutter the front pages of the forum!)

[Hock]

Arise it shall....

Hock