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[Hock]

"Hock, all those years of intel?  Just where did these weapons of mass destruction go then?"


Remember that Saddamn had a campaign to make his enemies think he had the weapons to scare them. Everyone knows that now.

I simply cannot believe that all these govenrments, for all these years, with all their rival polictical parties just dieing for a scandal on their opponents, all said they believed that Saddamn had weapons, and yet...it was all an international Darth Vader conspriacy of false intell to maybe someday...invade Iraq.

Even Oliver Stone thinks Bush (and Clinton and Gore) thought Saddamn was armed with WMDs.

There is a big difference between being wrong and being a Darth Vader liar.
IMAGINE the secret conspiracy. International! What power! What consummate control, YET we cannot get bottled water down to Katrina victims in less than two weeks?

Meanwhile ask just about any Green Beret (as I have when I meet them) where any of the Iraqi weapons went? They look me dead in the eye and quickly say..."Syria."

Hock

[Hock]

even to the extent that you're inventing what Brits want, making it up as you go along?

...and, serously, I missed that part. What are we inventing?

Hock

[Brian S]

How about the entire thread of "the Brist want their guns back?"

Hock, they wanted t invade Iraq.  All they had to do was come up with an excuse, and the scaremongering about the WMD fitted the bill perfectly, even accounting for the hit they took when it came apparent that they did not exist.  Same as re the ridiculous connection made between saddam Hussein and Al Quaeda.  I have no idea why you think I am talking of some secret conspiracy..... it was just another government led misdirection.  As for Oliver Stone?  Not sure what you're point is.  He's made a career out of misdirection hasn't he?

Have you heard the real intel that North Korea has WMD's?

WW - Well, if your son owns a weapon, then the majority of Americans must -    Doh!  Run it by me again why the British public should arm.... especially the "quickly" bit.  Guys like you have ranted on and on about the Brits arming for years.... but nothing seems to have happened just yet.  Any day now the whole structure of our society might collapse I suppose...... Oh Yes!  We'd better be quick! 

In all seriousness I do not know whether the majority or the miniroty own firearms in the States..... the fact that the majority voted for the main party most likely to challenge the levels of gun ownership hardly suports your case though.

Now for Nick.  Dear Nick.  Nick, the whole theme of these threads is that the British have got it wrong, and they should follow the US.  So just where does your point about a flawed US electoral system come in?  By the way, did you forget to mention it when the Republicans got in?

Listen - guys.  2 things.....

1 - Sort your own country out.  You're in no position to preach.  Your like women.... not only do you want someone to do what you do..... you want them to want to do what you do..... It's insane.

2 - When each and every piece of evidence serves to solidify your view on something (anything), then you are suffering from delusion.  It really is as simple as that.  All issues have two sides, and no one side is perfect.  But interpreting conflicting evidence inconsistelntly.... that's just mad.

[shastana]

Listen - guys.  2 things.....

1 - Sort your own country out.  You're in no position to preach.  Your like women.... not only do you want someone to do what you do..... you want them to want to do what you do..... It's insane.

Man, I hope you don't mean that.  BAAAAD IDEA MY FRIEND.  You just went from intellectual to pansy to flat out pole worshiper in my book.  I have an idea, lets try another "intellectual" exercise to digress for a moment from such childish name calling, shall we?

1-Nobody on this thread or others is "telling you what to do" or "how to live your lives".  We are asking valid questions about valid topics, looking for valid comments and input.  That is IT.  I.E. farmer is jailed for defending himself with gun in England, that was the topic of discussion.  Notice that nobody over here is telling you B.S. to "mind your own business", interesting.

2-The US does not go around "telling other countries what to do".  The US gvt has foreign policy issues that are most often sponsored by its allies and the UN.  The "cooked intel" was interpreted from Italian and German intelligence, albeit mistaken, it was not just U.S.-concocted.  The UN was on the Iraq WMD soap box for over a decade, and WMDs were "relocated", however Rummy and Bush were convinced that they were still there for whatever reason.

3-Before 9/11, the US was peaceful, noone over here paid much attention to the rest of the world, we were in our productive happy place.  Yes, our military occupies hot beds around the world since WWII, and stabilizing for example the middle east, benefits the rest of the free world via oil and energy resources and distribution.  Europe would be very vulnerable if the U.S. pulled out and Russian-Chinese interests moved in.

4-With regard to America "forcing our way" onto others.  The American Empire is not nearly as large as the British Empire was, you know India, China, Africa, America, Australia, South Pacific, Mediterranean, etc.  Remember??  The US approaches it much differently than England once did, in fact we give A LOT OF FINANCIAL AID in exchange for resources and strategic positioning of military bases.  America makes mistakes in the process no doubt, won't argue with that, but that is not the main point.  Benefits outweigh the problems created in most cases.

5-The trade off for American support in most areas of the globe are increased security and economics.  All on MY US tax dollars.  If not America, then the Russians and Chinese would "offer" their security to Europe, are you ready for that?

6-And don't even get me started on WWII, Britain was on its knees begging for help, and the US did so reluctantly.  "Sprekenze Deutch, Heil Hitler", that is now just a memory, or not even half that. BUT not in my family, all the old ones were either in the Pacific theater or fighting Nazis on the ground and in the air.  Oh how easy it is to forget yesterdays' sacrifices and compromises that are made to make this a world free from tyranny. 

So don't say to me or any American "we are like women" when we are literally the "Tip of the Spear" of the free world.  Just sit back and let us do the job that England can't do and reap the benefits of being an ally.  We could pull all American money and security back home, and let the rest of you duke it out, then conquer the winner after the fight was over, but that'd be too English...

[Brian S]

We have a term in the UK.  It's "You thick bastard." 

1 - That is just wrong.  Read the threads.

2 - You have no evidence they were ever there.  Ever.

3 - The US acted in the interests of the US in other countries prior to 9/11.  I'm not necessarily saying that this is a bad thing neither.... but they were hardly an angelic force protecting the weak.  As for 9/11 itself.... Al Quaeda aren't the only terrorists you know.  There were Republican terrorists killing children in Ireland (and mainland Britain) for many years.... But many of your countrymen did nothing other than finance them. 

4 - Of course the British Empire was bigger.  Who's arguing with that?

5 - Security?  Economics?  Don't you read the papers?  Even the most pro US journalist would have to agree that far more people have died in Iraq since we "freed" them than under Saddam Hussein. 

6 - I would stay quiet about WW2 if I was an American.  Most were prepared to "laissez faire", until the Japanese forced your hands.  Yes, I know of the aid supplied etc.  We only finished repaying the debt a couple of years ago!  So thanks for charging us to keep the world free!  It's appreciated!  But, at best, that was a little like offering to hold your friends coat (for a rpice) whilst he fights multiple opponents.  We could not have won WW2 without American aid and, of course, their late entry.....  If they had over run us prior to you being forced to enter the affray..... they would have over run you as well.  Be fair, if fighting the Nazis wasn't the most clear cut case ever of the need to fight... what was?  What kept you?

As for reaping the benefis of being an ally of the US?  Again... don't you read the papers?  We're facing the biggest economic disaster since the 1920's because the outgoing Republican Government presided over the US Financial markets in a totally inadequate fashion.  So thanks!

Yep.... that age old Brit saying really does apply here.......

But so what?  The basic truth is this.  The threads (even the deleted one...) clearly criticise the UK for not wanting to have the same firearms laws as the US...  There are no "questions" at all.  And the rest of your post?  It is just inaccurate, jingoistic nonsense.  Your failing arguments are being replaced by a general "le's have a go at the British" mentality.

Doh!

[whitewolf]

I just love this forum- and-the first thing i will do when i return to the USA for good is get my conceled wpn permit-WW (ELB)

[shastana]

B.S. you have all the answers of a typical European, so I can't even begin to start to employ simple logic in a civil discussion about the US, gun ownership, global security, etc. You have your view of America, but it is just that, YOUR VIEW.  Nothing you say changes anything or helps with the discussion at the original post, so I digress, not worth the energy.

I clearly see your posts are directed with animosity towards America.  The U.S. is bad, guns are bad for Britain, and we should "keep our mouths shut" about WWII. All hail to the Queen and her subjects.  That is crystal clear, GOT IT.  YOU SAID ALL I NEED TO HEAR.

One thing, say you were in a bar with some American WWII vets that just got home from Europe and you piped up like you are right now? You'd either have brass balls or a death wish.  Have some respect...or at least have a sense of self-preservation.

[shastana]

I have to add one more thing about WWII, since the comments made just pissed me off a bit, but this makes me feel better....we would not have been "overrun", we'd fought till the last man and woman. That's what it means to be American.  In WWII we had more commitment to the cause, 12% (of our population) almost double that of the British 7% (of Brit population). The comment from B.S. "what took us soo long"  could be answered, "why didn't you send more troops?"


WE AMERICANS WILL NOT BE QUIET ABOUT OUR SERVICE IN WWII. NOR WILL THE FAMILIES AND SURVIVORS.  THERE IS A LOT OF PRIDE IN OUR SACRIFICE AND THE SUCCESS THAT WE BROUGHT TO WWII.

 HERE ARE SOME VERY GOOD STATISTICS....

AMERICAN
Approximately 16 million served in WWII
Census before war 131,028,000
12% of entire US population went to war
671,485 U.S. Soldiers were wounded
450,670 U.S. soldiers died


BRITISH
Approximately 3.5 million served in WWII
Census before war 47,760,000
7% of entire British population went to war
382,700 British soldiers died

[Brian S]

But you only took part in half the war, so you should cut those stats in half?  Seriously.

As for being in danger from WW2 vets?  Did they fight for freedom or what?  You prattle on about freedom all the time..... but you don't know what it is.  It is letting everyone say their piece without fear of being put to death, or beaten up.  Not just letting people who agree with you say their piece.  Doh!

Animosity toward America?  You keep forgetting who is attacking who.  Look at the title of the thread - doh!  All I am doing is offering a more balanced view, rather than the usual "America is right no matter what they do" line often seen in these parts.

[Nick Hughes]

Brian Brian Brian,

I mentioned the electoral college because you were justifying your position on the fact the majority of Americans voted in the current President.  I was merely pointing out that the majority vote is not how it works here at all...it's far more complicated.  I never had a dog in the fight with regards to the Republicans being voted in by the majority...wherever did you fabricate that one from?  (I'm glad I'm not being interviewed by you in a station in England...you'd be making shite up like that and putting it in "my" statement no doubt  )

As for having a dig at the Yanks involvement in WWII...I think that's a tad disingenuous mate.  To begin with there were Americans in both World Wars who didn't wait around for their govt to declare their interest in getting involved.  They volunteered in Europe ahead of their govt back home.

As for the American soldiers who spilled their blood in Europe...just what did they have to do with the US govt policy back home?  When they were asked to go, they did and a lot of them died liberating Europe.  If you're going to have a go at the American GOVERNMENT not getting involved earlier, fair enough, but don't say 'the Americans' which includes the individuals who gave their all when asked to do so.

I personally love the story, perhaps apocryphal, of the elderly US tourist standing at customs in France trying to find his passport...

an elderly gentleman of 83,

arrived in Paris by plane. At French

Customs, he took a few minutes to locate

his passport in his carry on. 'You have

been to France before, monsieur?' the

customs officer asked sarcastically.

The man admitted that he had been to

France previously. Then you should

know enough to have your passport ready.'

The American said, ''The last time I was

here, I didn't have to show it. 'Impossible.

Americans always have to show your

passports on arrival in France !' The American

senior gave the Frenchman a long hard

look. Then he quietly explained, ''Well,

when I came ashore at Omaha Beach on D-Day

in 1944 to help liberate this country,

I couldn't find a single Frenchmen to show

a passport to.'

Nick

[Brian S]

Nick Nick Nick.....

How can you lump individuals who acted outside of their nation in with the nation itself.  I'm sure there were Germans who rejected Nazism.  That doesn't mean that some Nazis weren't Nazis.

As for comments about America's involvement in the war, they were in response to the childish and innaccurate thought process about how we owe them so much... and they were there in our time of need.....  We owe each other and, regardless of the emotive nonsense about (cue music) "we would have fought them until the last man.... that is what being American is all about....."  That is just rhetorical nonsense from a person who believes that people from his country are somehow more worthy than those of someone else'.

Oh yes!  The tip of the spear to the free world.... but don't let them hear you say something they don't like!  Or they'll beat you up!

Isn't freedom a wonderful thing?

[shastana]

HA, when do you stop B.S.  This is ridiculous.  I will end my involvement of this tirade you are on with one last parting thought:  if you want respect, you give respect.  Nuff said.  If you give no respect then you get no respect.  And frankly sir, you have lost my respect and I don't think I'm alone.

[whitewolf]

Ah yes-I too have to say this is my last comment and I will go on to  bigger and better things-(I started this thread) so ----
Arm every god dam Brit and take out the knifers/robbers/rapists/terrrorist/
/perverts/slime buckets/pedifils/kidnappers/child molesters/etc
who attack . Give the Brit police more powers .
AND-lastly NICK GOOD story on the American who landed on shore D-day.
(How soon they forget)
Whitewolf (El Lobo Blanco)

[arnold]

Complex scientific equipment?
Dear Dumbass ( aka Vinyl Head alter super hero)
In order to make a complex bacteria, all one needs is an enclosed plastic pail, some fertilizer, water and some heat,  scrape up some black mold, and bingo, you have a toxic bacteria.
In a sorta like, strange scientific way,it is similar to when you insert your head up your ass to do your monthly colon cleanse in the scraping of the walls of your large intestines for the gerbil removal. It would be highly toxic ( see definition of Liberal ) to the average human.
And as for your statement that the majority of Americans voted for Obama, let's not forget voter fraud concocted by Acorn, failure to disclose donations to his campaign, and that the average American is an idiot, along with the hypocritical black vote for a black man who by the way is of mixed race and is only half black, who threw out their religious beliefs in voting for a man who promotes abortion.
Now this oughta start some shit

[Brian S]

HA, when do you stop B.S.  This is ridiculous.  I will end my involvement of this tirade you are on with one last parting thought:  if you want respect, you give respect.  Nuff said.  If you give no respect then you get no respect.  And frankly sir, you have lost my respect and I don't think I'm alone.

This is the best line on the entire subject...... Americans criticise my country..... so I criticise theirs...... so it is ME who is not giving respect?  Haw haw haw!