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[Brian S]

If only 23 years of front line policing meant anything.

But it doesn't.

 

[Mick Coup]

Mate,

Without - ever - wanting to stick up for Brian, whatever I, and others, may have done in the past, the average serving cop in the UK and US is still getting more 'hands-on' experience on a regular basis - no?

I've been following this thread and others of a similar vein with interest, but unfortunately they all seem to have either been generated to start some 'my dad's bigger than yours' issue between the US and UK, or else they just end up down this path.

I'm a UK citizen - and just as proud of this fact as you guys are of being citizens of the US, so let's not try and make a competition out of it for fuck's sake.  

Implying that we're all a bunch of scared unprotected victims is absolutely fucking ridiculous, it's naive and basically just plain ignorant of the facts - not to mention downright insulting.  

The vast - overwhelming - majority of UK dwellers are not cowed into submission by crime, they do sleep soundly at night - unarmed.  I pretty much imagine this to be the case for the US too - and I'm certain that statistics would prove me right in this assumption.

Fact is, despite our rise in gun crime - seized upon and massaged by the media as usual - this vast overwhelming majority of the UK populace has never even seen a real firearm save for the ones carried by our police at airports, let alone looked down the barrel of one.  We had a crazy fucker who shot a bunch of people in a small town called Hungerford, and we had another waste of oxygen walk into a school in a place called Dunblane and shoot a bunch of kids - we changed the laws both times to make it harder for the next person to do the same, and it hasn't happened since.  Were we wrong?  Doesn't seem so does it?

Despite what the media portray, firearms are very difficult to get hold of in the UK - the instances of underground mass re-activation of inert weapons, and conversion of replica/air weapons have been very successfully dealt with by our police, and even the proliferation of Ex Eastern-Bloc weapons now freely available throughout mainland Europe has a hard time getting into the country.

It's not as if every burglary or car-theft has the potential to put more weapons on the street - they're simply not out there to begin with.

I've seen these online 'debates' use general statistics to 'prove' specific points, and vice versa - there's no such 'proof' using such means at all.

Bringing the farmer - Tony Martin - into the debate as proof absolute of our failure to allow citizens to defend themselves is a mistake, the facts of that particular case would most likely have seen him imprisoned in the US too.  Isolated instances of houseowners being prosecuted for assault don't prove the case either - what about the instances of self-defence and defence of property that see criminals injured that fall well within the law?  Personally I've been involved in a multitude of instances where I've claimed self-defence, without prosecution - so I'm not making this up.

The 'March for Guns' that has been put forward as evidence of the UK populace demanding to be armed is highly inaccurate - in reality it was actually a march by a tiny percentage protesting about a ban on traditional 'horse and hounds' fox-hunting, not guns.

Personally I like shooting guns of all descriptions recreationally, and they've come in more than handy for me operationally - but knowing the UK much better than the majority of you guys, I firmly believe that we're better off as we are.  

We're certainly not circling the drain as a nation, we're not oppressed by rampant crime or controlled by any 'nanny state' as has been levelled at us here, though we obviously have problems - but show me a nation that doesn't?  

I can't see the argument that it appears is trying to be made, other than we should be like the US?  Does everyone have to be?

Mick

[whitewolf]

Mick- you are right and i agree-everyone does not have to be like the USA-
In fact i also  think it probably would be more benificial if we stayed on the CQC subjects a bit more-anyhow you made valid points-stay  safe- whitewolf (El lobo blanco)

[whitewolf]

Brian S of J.O. E.-yes 23 years of front line policing means a hell of a lot-we joke around but i reolize you are on the front lines-stay  safe- WW (ELB)

[gematriot]

A very good post indeed. I would like to ask the following questions:

firearms are very difficult to get hold of in the UK - the instances of underground mass re-activation of inert weapons, and conversion of replica/air weapons have been very successfully dealt with by our police, and even the proliferation of Ex Eastern-Bloc weapons now freely available throughout mainland Europe has a hard time getting into the country.

How did the police handle the problem of Eastern Bloc weapons? You are correct in stating that these are freely on the mainland. One point that is often brought up in favour of gun control is the claim that most guns arrive on the "street" having been stolen from licensed firearm holders. My opinion on that take was that it ignored the influx of weapons which accompany organized crime. If the UK police have solved that problem it is difficult to justify a need for firearms.

What type of self defense weapons, if any, are considered legal in the UK?

Portugal is currently "ironing out" some changes to the gun laws here. Several new trends are emerging here which do not bode well. One such trend is a growing number of Brazilian gangs in operation here, specializing in assaulting jewelry stores.

[Mick Coup]

It isn't exactly a case of the police directly solving the problem of such Eastern-Bloc weapons mate, more to do with geography making the large scale smuggling of such items difficult, coupled with no real legal outlet that would necessitate having them in the country that could be manipulated and abused.

Obviously they do land in this country by various means, but on a small scale in reality despite what the media would have everyone believe - the notion of a relatively safe society doesn't sell too much copy or airtime, here or anywhere else!

There have been high-priority arrests of individuals who were converting de-activated weapons - intended for collectors - back to live fire capability on a large-scale, and it was proven that a disproportionate number of illegal weapons used throughout the UK actually came from such limited sources.  Such arrests proved a huge blow to the supply of weapons to the criminal elements, and reduced the availability dramatically.

Premium weapons such as Glocks are extremely expensive on the black-market here, this is due to the limited availability - though every would-be player apparently 'knows' someone who can supply 'anything you need' but the reality isn't that cut and dried, fortunately!  There was a spate of a certain air-pistol brand  - Brocock - being converted to fire live ammunition as its configuration proved highly receptive with minimal reworking - this was easily solved by this particular brand being taken off the market in the UK.

Other criminal enterprise sought to convert blank-firing weapons to fire crude projectiles - often with disastrous results for the firer - and those items were removed from public sale too.  Read between the lines regarding all this ingenuity - there just aren't that many guns available or else they wouldn't need to bother. 

There are no weapons as such legal to carry in the UK, this includes items designed to be weapons, or items carried with the intent to be used as a weapon.  If you cave someone's head in with a rock in self-defence - no problem, but if you carry a rock around in order to use it for this purpose 'just in case' it's illegal.  Obviously there is a whole 'intent' deal to prove - but it's a blanket rule applying to all, so the scumbag caught 'going equipped' has a hard time explaining his case too.

All laws handicap the law-abiding - the criminal has no urge to comply with them and obviously has the upper-hand as a result, but what is the alternative - no laws?  Sure we have miscarriages of justice here regarding self-defence cases, and these are the specific statistics often used falsely to prove a general point - if as much research were conducted into the sanctioned use of force in self-defence cases the results would be less sensational.  Don't tell me that people are never wrongly sued or convicted in use-of-force cases in the US - that some piece of shit criminal never gets a big payout for taking a beating that he appled for in triplicate, and earned twice over!

This approach to citizen weaponry may seem draconian, but our stance is if everyone were allowed to carry OC spray, or a substantial knife, it's a fine line to draw between using it for legal or illegal purposes - no?  Here's the deal, get found with a knife and no real reason for having it, you have no excuse, no argument - maybe this impacts upon the law-abiding who simply 'want' to carry such an item, but it certainly leaves those with the wrong intentions from having a loophole to escape through.  Get found with OC spray and there is no legal reason to possess it at all, so a mugger intending to use it on a victim cannot wriggle out of possession by claiming it was for his own defence etc.

Most of this is of course alien to those used to having no such legislation - but our culture is vastly different in such regards.

Mick   

[gematriot]

Thanks for the detailed response!

[Bryan]

If only 23 years of front line policing meant anything.

But it doesn't.

 

23 years and never fired a shot, that at least deserves a t-shirt or lapel button.

[Hock]

Oh my god.
Has this same discussion going on for years?
Hock

[Brian S]

Yes.

And who started this one? 

In all seriousness the entire thread was based on a false assumption.  One march to prevent the illegalisation of fix hunting twisted into a march to preserve the right to own firearms.......

[Mick Coup]

If only 23 years of front line policing meant anything.

But it doesn't.

 

23 years and never fired a shot, that at least deserves a t-shirt or lapel button.

In this case wouldn't the vast majority of everyday-armed US law enforcement personnel get the same badge/t-shirt?  Or is Brian - the shit-stirring bastard - some sort of coward in your book, seeing that as an unarmed police officer he hasn't 'capped' any bad guys?

Remind me of all the active service you've done again? 

Mick

[Bryan]

If only 23 years of front line policing meant anything.

But it doesn't.

 

23 years and never fired a shot, that at least deserves a t-shirt or lapel button.

In this case wouldn't the vast majority of everyday-armed US law enforcement personnel get the same badge/t-shirt?  Or is Brian - the shit-stirring bastard - some sort of coward in your book, seeing that as an unarmed police officer he hasn't 'capped' any bad guys?

Remind me of all the active service you've done again? 

Mick

  Pretty much I'm saying he is a coward hiding behind a user name. He likes to write up a bunch of bullshit on the internet but that's all he can do. A cop in England is about as useful as Mall Security in America. Just look how bad they fucked up with that Brazilian kid they executed a few years ago, maybe you guys dont need guns if you cant do any better than that.

 You see that little gold and green lapel pin avatar in the top left hand of this post, That's all you need to know about me.

[Mick Coup]

Back to singular anecdotes again?  Big mistake shooting that guy - no-one says otherwise.

Remind me how many died at Waco, when the target could've been arrested during his weekly grocery-store run?  Is this the game you want to play?

So Brian is a coward hiding behind an internet username?  I thought he was a frontline cop, unarmed at that - an apparently suicidal task according to some views of the 'rampant gun crime' we have here, but now he's in as much danger as a mall security officer - which is it to be?

As for yourself, wouldn't it be more accurate to classify you as being the coward hiding behind a keyboard?  I reckon Brian wouldn't back down from proving himself - can't say the same for you.

Didn't you have some 'challenge match' organised once upon a time?  How did that work out for you?

If you are so proud of serving your country, which you fucking should be, why did you only spend such a short term in the military, and leave the country for another one?

Didn't you just fix helicopters or something, for about 15 minutes?  That isn't even a combatant role is it?

The guys that did/do the least always make the most noise.  Couldn't hack it, but really wish that you had?  Is that what your deal is?

Mick

[Brian S]

Mick hits on an interesting irony that I've seen many times.

The British Police are (largely) unarmed..... so they're a waste of time bunch of namby pamby's.....  Yet Britain is supposedly brimming with vicious crime, armed criminals causing mayhem everywhere...... with only the largely unamred police (who have filled all the prisons by the way) to stop them.

Which is it?  They cannt both be true.

As an aside, if I had only put a few short months in the job I wouldn't brag on about being a cop veteran, nor would I use any kind of avatar with a police badge on.

[Bryan]

Back to singular anecdotes again?  Big mistake shooting that guy - no-one says otherwise.

Remind me how many died at Waco, when the target could've been arrested during his weekly grocery-store run?  Is this the game you want to play?

So Brian is a coward hiding behind an internet username?  I thought he was a frontline cop, unarmed at that - an apparently suicidal task according to some views of the 'rampant gun crime' we have here, but now he's in as much danger as a mall security officer - which is it to be?

As for yourself, wouldn't it be more accurate to classify you as being the coward hiding behind a keyboard?  I reckon Brian wouldn't back down from proving himself - can't say the same for you.

Didn't you have some 'challenge match' organised once upon a time?  How did that work out for you?

If you are so proud of serving your country, which you fucking should be, why did you only spend such a short term in the military, and leave the country for another one?

Didn't you just fix helicopters or something, for about 15 minutes?  That isn't even a combatant role is it?

The guys that did/do the least always make the most noise.  Couldn't hack it, but really wish that you had?  Is that what your deal is?

Mick

  You need to do a little research before you start writing if you dont want to end up looking like a fool. I like how you post this about the guys that did make the least noise. I never wanted any public attention and kept a very low profile for many years. If Marc Denny and Gabe Suarez had not been running of their mouths you would have never heard of me so you can thank them for that.

  I have never backed away from a necessary fight, I take care of business. What I dont do is chase down every punk on the net and slap them around. It was in fact a Englishman who challenged me to a fight but he could never back his shit up with contract or logistics to get it done. I'm well past that now and no longer care, I have a few fights left in me but those are reserved for the bad guys.

 There was the incident with David Moraski Jr. wanting to have some kind of stupid show down in Bangkok but he is nothing but a punk. I cant be bothered with him outside the net unless he is unlucky enough to ever meet me. I have never forgotten about him insulting my wife as he did and I'm making sure certain people in the business know what kind of punk he actually is.

 I'm a expert with Batons, Blades, Guns, and Combatives. If you ever come to Thailand and behave like a gentleman your welcome to see for yourself. As for the other nonsense, dont believe nothing you read and only half of what you see. About me being an American, that is correct. Plenty of people are capable of having big ideas concerning adventure, I have lived out more than my fair share.