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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • February 08, 2012, 05:43:23 AM
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Author Topic: Reverse edge method  (Read 2334 times)

metz57

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Reverse edge method
« on: May 15, 2009, 10:14:27 AM »

Has anybody trained in this method? A guy who calls himself Southnarc has a couple of DVDs out on the subject. Looks interesting and he comes across as a credible instructor.

He teaches holding the knife edge in, in both forward and reverse grips and has designed a couple of knives for this purpose. Every thing is thrust driven and any time the thrust is stopped the hand is retracted quickly, shearing the blocking limb and opening up the thrust line for another attack while at the same time striking the head. It is very combative and obviously there is a lot more to it. 

Southnarc states that the reverse edge method is for extreme close range and does not lend itself to ranges greater than grappling range. Does this make it too limited as a system? Is it something to switch to when the distance has closed?

I’d be interested to hear your opinions.
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Hock

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2009, 06:06:58 PM »

"There is no perfect knife grip, just the best one for the moment."
                                                              - Dan Insosanto

Well in a perfect world?
You'd have a double-edged knife and the whole issue would be moot.
Next you would have a single-edged, knife that had a half an edge or 3/4s of an edge on the "second-side, be street-legal, so it is very like a double-edged knife, anyway.

There is a small minority of knife people who are brainwashed into this idea full-time. One guy calls it the "point shooting of knife-fighting"...(WHAT the Hell?) and they love this edge-in thing. But they sacrifice all the edge-out slashing that is so useful, and way more probable. But this minority is utterly brainwashed into its superiority. For years now I have heard knife guys talk with frustration about the blinders these people wear.

This reverse grip, edge-in grip, is usually used to pull people into you, so you are in essence pulling a knife attacker into you?

In Level 3 of my Knife/Counter-Knife course is the subject matter module Reverse Grip slashing and in it I discuss and show the 3 big applications of the "edge-in people" love to use. (because it can work and because it can also work with a double edge knife. I cover the moves and I announce that there is a small minority of people who over-emphasize the edge-in idea.

Needless to add for over 15 years now I have teaching the four "counters to common blocks and contacts" and the first one of them is "cutting the block," (something I learned form the Inosanto people in the 1980s.) With minimum wrist movement and practice you can cut that limb from a reverse or saber grip! Don't need no new special model knife! But if its sharp only on one side? Sometimes you can't get the slash. There are a few combinations of arm/knife contact. A double-edged, or almost double-edged, knife is more versatile. And of course strike as much as possible, as we train for, for over 15 years, "Support Hand Striking and Kicking - the "while Holding" series shown from Level 2 through 7. So cutting the limb and striking the person as inside steps of combat scenarios are great ideas. Very old. Well before me and South Narc.

Remember, God's First Knife, hidden in the bushes at the Garden of Eden was the simple, versatile, double-edged, "commando" knife. Everytime someone invents a new shape knife for some one-trick pony move, my stomach acid gurgles. Everyone's should. Jeez, does every self-proclaimed knife guy need his own, expensive knife?

Knives in the field of duty MUST be versatile. You may be cutting a new door through plasterboard or who knows what? Ergo the simple, commando shape.

But I will keep my knives simple and double-edged, or almost double-edged, and have the main, sharp edge out, thank you. I think its a mistake to always hold an edge-in knife. Its a bigger mistake to buy a knife that forces you into a one-or two trick pony move. Like its a mistake to always hold a reverse grip as many people foolishly think. Its also smarter to learn the other 3 counters to common blocks and contacts.


Hock
(This was actually a pretty in-depth discussion here years ago...somewhere.)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 07:23:41 PM by Hock »
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Adventure

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2009, 06:38:19 PM »

SouthNarc is a Narc cop down south somewhere, Louisiana I think...? I see him a lot on the Dog Brothers site or use to. I have been told he is Pekiti-Tirsia, and they like the Pakal (Reverse grip) edge-in grip.  He has a very fast QD & promotes the "one option for all situations" defense (i.e. Left arm triangle shield while the right is in the forward fence or spear position.) (Am I a loud to use "spear" or will T.B. sue me) Due to the adrenaline ( fight, flight, freeze) of the situation.

States he likes thrusts the best because no matter how you draw your knife the point is forward and no need to figure out which way the edge is facing.

This is a brief statement of thing I have seen in his DVDs. But like Hock says what about the utility of the rest of the knife, being able to use it for other situations. Combative or otherwise.

Hock

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2009, 08:21:22 PM »

He is all over a lot of talk forums. Active duty - he is lucky to be able to haul real sims weapons and ammos around and teach simunition shooting. That has to be a hassle. Imagine the facility you'd need to withstand sims ammo. Meanwhile more local gun ranges are getting them too. Still a facilities problems.

Pekiti also does a TON of saber grip knife too. Since the 1980s, I can't say I have ever met a Pekiti guy stuck on the reverse grip, as they are too widely trained to fixate on one grip.

Hock

metz57

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2009, 05:05:46 AM »

Thanks for the replies. Hock, I agree that it does limit the techniques but do you think it might be useful in grappling range?  Maybe turn the knife in your hand when on the ground for example?

Just to clarify, I have no intention of buying one his knives. I don’t/can’t carry a knife unless I’m working and when I’m working the knife I carry has to do a million things not sit there waiting for something that will probably never happen. Plus, their very expensive!
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arnold

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2009, 06:04:19 AM »

God made a knife?! I must have missed that in Bible class..damn!
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Hock

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2009, 06:56:18 PM »

Loosely speaking..
Personally for me, If I could, I would perfer saber grip when standing and reverse grip on the ground. But even on the ground, I wouldn't turn the blade inward and loose easy/easier reverse grip slashing and anyway...my knife will have some inches of sharpness on the back side.

Hock

Hock

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 07:45:14 PM »

"God made a knife?! I must have missed that in Bible class..damn!"

I guess God made everyhting didn't he?
The A-bomb. Everything.
God even made the Devil.

He's kind of like Francis Ford Coppola, or Quinton Tarentino, making up all kinds of stuff for a great show. Its boring in outer space.

Hock

Joe Hubbard

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2009, 04:54:37 AM »

Famous Navy Seal Dick Marcinko points out that the edge in knife grip equates to what you see in Hollywood movies when they cut the throat towards you rather than away from you.  Dicky explains that throat slitting inward (towards you) exacerbates the blood spatter on you rather than cutting outwards with blade out.  Hock, being a former blood spatter expert knows this little secret.

There is really such a low percentage of useful things that can be done with the knife blade in.  I'm surprised that SN promotes this especially because he leans on the WW2 combatives community for his business where simple ideas x Hick's Law are gospel.  The "reverse grip/blade in" is where many complicated, low percentage usage Filipino stuff lies.  But hey, you know the old saying, "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king." 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 04:57:59 AM by Joe Hubbard »
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Mr. Barnett

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2009, 06:10:53 AM »

"Its boring in outer space"

I haven't laughed that hard since Smokey and the Bandit.  That was a good one.
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grlaun

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2009, 07:30:25 AM »

God made a knife?! I must have missed that in Bible class..damn!

Yeah, I think He cut animal skins with it....

Boring in outer space?!? WAY too funny...
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Hock

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2009, 07:39:41 AM »

AAANNNNd.

Military sentry kills, all pros and cons, world-wide stories are covered in a chapter in the my new Knife book, In the big picture, various militaries argue about all those types of sentry kills.

http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product391.html

That chapter co-starring OFFICER Rawhide Laun.


"There is no perfect knife grip, just the best one for the moment."
                                                              - Dan Insosanto

Jesse

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2009, 08:46:41 AM »

I believe SN is still in active duty, but he told me a few weeks ago he no longer works undercover.

I like the Inosanto quote.
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Hock

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2009, 08:57:12 AM »

Few people have the free time that I have, or since this is now my full time business, I can spend the time that I spend doing what I do. A very large percentage of that time is spent in and about the knife.

Scienticially, by the numbers, a person can do more things with a saber grip than a reverse grip. Its simple math. If someone tells you otherwise? I am sorry, they are simply wrong and uneducated in the field.

I teach both grips in the 10 level course, so people are use to both. I will never tell anyone how they should hold their knife, that is their personal choice. A knife is dangerous and tactically forgiving. It works well even when you screw up.

My personal choice -  standing, a saber grip. Ground, a reverse "ice pick" grip, but then  again  - not always.

All fights are situational. And all situations call for situational problem-solving. A fighter free to respond to a situation is better than a fighter stuck and mired in dogma.

Its doctrine, not dogma.

Hock

grlaun

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Re: Reverse edge method
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2009, 12:40:00 PM »

Its doctrine, not dogma.

Therein lies the crux of the issue.  I think 98% of instructors in any martial art/combative field fail to question their motive or method.  There is no research or contemplation on whether or not what is being relayed to their charges is accurate and effective.  Some go minimalistic that there are only a few responses and then the far end- so esoteric that it is laughable.  I regularly review the SFC DVDs (not only to entertain myself in some sick perverted way as I get stretched, beaten and stomped on for an hour- it's hysterical & no sound of pain is faked...!) in order to realign my thinking as I come across various philosophies and methods.  The greatest thing about the SFC?  It's a common sense filter for those in the field.  If it doesn't match up to the minimum requirements of Hock's course, I relegate the technique or method to art or situational.  As ome techniques are simply that and only work under certain circumstances... Rock on Hock!

I could be a smidgen bias, however...
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