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[seanross]

I was on the Cold Steel website the other day and noticed a few of the rules for their knife fighting.

1. No intentional stabs to the throat.  (this in spite of throat protection required)
2. No kicking or punching.
Why?  2a.  No punching or kicking as this weights the contest in favor of the bigger, stronger, heavier competitor unrealistically
3. No takedowns or throws
4. No wristlocks, strips, joint locks or stripping
Why?  Two reasons are given for safety, the third is "you could be stabbed by a shorter, lighter, weaker opponent, then grab his wrist and twist it for a submission...
8. No clinching
12. No hitting with pommel of knife.

Remember, these are padded knives and the participants are all geared up.

As far as I can tell, the result of these rules is something almost, but not entirely unlike a fight with a knife.  All close encounters are weighted in favor of the bigger, heavier fellow, you'd better be willing to fight past a stab.  A joint crank may be appropriate.  Takedowns, throws, joint cranks, pommel strikes, clinching and throat stabs are par for the course.  I really don't have any beef with the rules for safety sake.  After all, the competitors are not friends and training partners.  They have no basis for trust and you need to keep things safe.  But don't tell me that your rules are for "realism".

[Trembula]

Sparring is essentially a "game." Games in themselves are not useless and I think it was Joe Lewis who said that "Nothing replaces ring time", but one has to know what one is getting into and the limitations of the game.

Size and strength have always mattered in physical activities, including personal combat. It isn't the be-all, end-all, but something that is a fact of life. Some folks are stronger, heavier, faster, taller than others. If you have the physical attributes, USE THEM to your advantage. But it is folly to rely soley on brute strength or size to win the day... the flu, disease, age, injury, or other impairment can and will diminish you.

Inasofar as knife "sparring" rules go, I think Hock's "Kill Shot" rules for stick and knife sparring are about as good as it can safely get. In a nutshell, they are as follows:

- Protect the head/vital areas at all costs... get knocked on the noggin, match is over, you lose ("sudden death")
- Weighing down arms/legs that have been struck to simulate the diminishing nature of an impact or cut
- Minimal padding (stick can be rattan or some form of padded stick, helmet w/ face shield required and gloves plus groin protection). A little padding is smart, but too much encourages folks to suicidally absorb strikes because they don't hurt.

There are a few more, but that details the general idea of "Kill Shot."

Dan

[Professor]

I was on the Cold Steel website the other day and noticed a few of the rules for their knife fighting.

1. No intentional stabs to the throat.  (this in spite of throat protection required)
2. No kicking or punching.
Why?  2a.  No punching or kicking as this weights the contest in favor of the bigger, stronger, heavier competitor unrealistically
3. No takedowns or throws
4. No wristlocks, strips, joint locks or stripping
Why?  Two reasons are given for safety, the third is "you could be stabbed by a shorter, lighter, weaker opponent, then grab his wrist and twist it for a submission...
8. No clinching
12. No hitting with pommel of knife.

Remember, these are padded knives and the participants are all geared up.

As far as I can tell, the result of these rules is something almost, but not entirely unlike a fight with a knife.  All close encounters are weighted in favor of the bigger, heavier fellow, you'd better be willing to fight past a stab.  A joint crank may be appropriate.  Takedowns, throws, joint cranks, pommel strikes, clinching and throat stabs are par for the course.  I really don't have any beef with the rules for safety sake.  After all, the competitors are not friends and training partners.  They have no basis for trust and you need to keep things safe.  But don't tell me that your rules are for "realism".

I'll tell you that judging our "Kill-shot" kill tourneys is tough enough without anything in the fight except the knife.  About 80% of the time, when I've judged the competitions, the participants are "killed" or severely injured before a wrist lock etc. is conducted.

Remember, it's knife on knife.....if it's empty handed against the knife, some different factors come into play. 

Size matters.  Skill matters more.  YMMV


Jeff

 

[Joe Hubbard]

Tournaments of any kind are difficult to organise, as there are so many different views on such events.  I am talking from experience here.  In January 2004, I hosted a Pacific Archipelago Camp with Hock here in London, where we held a Killshot Tournament over two days (you can see footage of this tournament on several of Hock’s new DVDs).  In the organisational phase of this event, I received countless e-mails and phone calls from probable competitors with genuine interest.  Most seemed to think the idea of Killshot was exciting, but guess what?  On the day there were only six people who competed and four of them were my own students!  From the initial reaction that I had about this stick & knife challenge with the more realistic Killshot rules, I thought there would be at least a minimum of 50 competitors.  The sad truth is that people fight the way they train!  All of a sudden I had seasoned FMA practitioners quibbling about the rules. “The rules are not clear” or “We are not sure about this sudden death head shot deal” or “My Guro says many people in the Philippines can take full blown head shots with rattan sticks” or “Gee, no point system, how do I train my guys for this?” or “You mean on some rounds we’ll have to either draw our knives or run to pick them up off the ground?”  Can you see how easy it is to become brainwashed by all this nonsense?  I mean how clear is: if you take a full-blown shot to the head- you’re out!  If you get hit on either hand, you have to fight with the other hand.  Both hands are hit- you fight empty handed.  I actually believe that most of these people are more concerned about “the winning” of such an event, than “the experience”.  Egos play a big part in turning these events into a “game of tag” rather than giving them a deeper insight to a real life or death altercation.  Now it has to be said that Killshot or any other force-on-force drill is not anywhere close to the real thing, but it’s a lot closer to the “game of tag” that seems to be ever so popular.  It is also important that the proper coaching and judging takes place, especially for the knife category.  Just because you cut somebody’s throat, it still takes time for that person to bleed out.  Depending on someone’s will to survive, it is possible that they could fight on for minutes more.  An acquaintance of mine who is a freedom fighter in Iraq described to me just how long one of the captives, who had their head cut off by fundamentalist terrorists with a large knife, lived before he finally died.  Although graphic, it points out that we all need to raise the bar in our combat scenario training and “Knife Sparring Tournaments!”  Nothing replaces real-time folks!

Peace Through Greater Fire Power!

Joe

P.S.  The guy who won the knife category? He was about 5’8 and 160 pounds.  He was up against an NHB competitor, a champion kick boxer and several experienced FMA guys who all outweighed him!

[Professor]

<snipped>
“The sad truth is that people fight the way they train!  All of a sudden I had seasoned FMA practitioners quibbling about the rules....."My Guro says many people in the Philippines can take full blown head shots with rattan sticks”
<snipped>

Rattan is not used for fighting...it's used for training....I've been hit full blast with a rattan stick and kicked their ass....however, it was a little(r) stick and I was mad. 

A good hardwood stick (hickory, oak or ironwood) and I wouldn't have enough brain cells left to breath.   

[Joe Hubbard]

Hey Jeff

Did you really take a full blow to the head with rattan?  It must have been a reed , not a stick.  The other day, I was sparring with a student who was wearing hockey gloves and smashed his hand.  He was finished and the result days later was a black finger nail that ended up falling off.  I've unfortunately taken light witiks or half assed fans to the head and have been able to carry on, but a full blown shot- rattan or not doesn't sound plausible with no head gear to me.  A friend of mine also relayed a story of a "well-known" Dog Bro, who at a recent Sunday park event was not able to compete because he took a medium rattan hand shot with no protection the night before just fooling around with some friends.  Hock has said time and time again that a stick (rattan) travelling at 30 miles per hour can cave your skull in.  For us mere mortals- make sure to wear helmets, even with padded sticks!

Let's talk Hock into a Killshot for the Dallas PAC camp in May!!!

Ciao

Joe

[Alex]

 Hey Folks from other side of the pond! (Canada not GB)  Hi Joe and hope you're doing well......I hope you got that "Brit-Fight" video; if not email me!

I think this thread belongs in the stick section, but anyhooo...

Well, I've a mixed reaction to killshot stuff;  I think some kind of attributes have to be learned from both methods of dueling. It's unfair and unwise to say that the one mighty blow to the head with a stick or pipe or bat will KO an opponent; it's also unwise to assume that it won't.  I've been cracked with a rattan stick with a sparring cage and without; both didn't knock me out, but they certainly diminished me. I've had whacks to the hand make me quit faster than a shot to the  treehouse, so I don't know.

Conversely, in several "rule-oriented stickfights", I saw guys getting KO'd with full gear.  It depends on the individual and his/her attributes.  Sparring should only be used minimally and then, only at about 1/3 speed to practice timing, accuracy and techniques you learn; heavy bags, dummies, mitts, pads, war posts, tire-men should be used for impact and power.

Same goes for knife:  we all KNOW that a nick or a slice will probably bleed; one across the head will bleed MUCH, etc.  I use knife sparring to improve accuracy and timing and for the "get in, cut and get out" mentality.

Anyway my 3 cents worth...keep safe
 

[Joe Hubbard]

Hi Alex

Good post!  Nice to hear from you.  I got that Brit-Fight e-mail, but for some reason I couldn't open it.  All the points that you have made are a valid contribution to this thread.  It still all relates to the original question in reference to "unrealistic" rules in this kind of competition, be it stick or knife.  I think that it is important to point out that when training your knife skills and commiting what you are learning to "apply in battle" whatever the context may be (tourney, street, etc.), that there is a pragmatical progression set in place for everyone to experience.  My thoughts on Killshot?  It's not the end all or be all of anything; just better to the totally unrealistic alternatives.  Do I think that long-range skill is unnecessary?  No way, but it's only a couple of seconds in a rumble.  Too many guys are training disproportionately (knife fencing) to what actually occurs in a fight.  This is why many who engage in "knife sparring" find it very difficult to close the gap and execute a takedown where your opponent is on his back and you are standing.  Here is a great way to train isolated knife sparring or empty hand vs. the knife to develop this attribute- start your guys with an "in the clutches" reference and make them spar from there.  If they break away, stop the match and start them again.  If they insist on breaking apart, tie a rope around them joining them at the waist with enough slack that "the firstest with the mostest" can execute the takedown and finish without being taken down himself.  This will improve your quick kill in-fighting against an uncooperative partner.  Like all of these, it's still just a drill, but forces you to deal with close quarter knife battle.  Perhaps a good way to continue this thread is by discussing different training methods that you use (directed at all who read this) to develop  realistic CQC knife fighting skills against an uncooperative opponent!  Keep it rolling guys, this is good.

Size matters, skill matters more (soory Jeff for using your line, but it's too good to resist!)

Joe

[Professor]

Hey Jeff

Did you really take a full blow to the head with rattan?  It must have been a reed , not a stick.  The other day, I was sparring with a student who was wearing hockey gloves and smashed his hand.  He was finished and the result days later was a black finger nail that ended up falling off.  I've unfortunately taken light witiks or half assed fans to the head and have been able to carry on, but a full blown shot- rattan or not doesn't sound plausible with no head gear to me.  A friend of mine also relayed a story of a "well-known" Dog Bro, who at a recent Sunday park event was not able to compete because he took a medium rattan hand shot with no protection the night before just fooling around with some friends.  Hock has said time and time again that a stick (rattan) travelling at 30 miles per hour can cave your skull in.  For us mere mortals- make sure to wear helmets, even with padded sticks!

Let's talk Hock into a Killshot for the Dallas PAC camp in May!!!

Ciao

Joe

Hey joe,

Sorry to say that I have been hit the head with a rattan stick (all rattan is a vine, no grains) at full speed without a helmet.   About 2 inches (4.5 cm?) above the left ear on the back quadrant.   Hurt like hell, but I had testosterone dripping out of my eyeballs at the time, I didn't realize it until the dizziness about 30 minutes afterward and my friend's shocked face - who was watching.  -- It was a grudge match after hours...he was an ass with a broken hand at the end of the day . . . and I was young, stupid and luck.   It's amazing what adenaline will do for you.   

9 times out of 10, it'll knock you out.   The tenth time isn't pretty.     

To echo your words, wear safety equipments, I have many of my finger that were irrepairably damaged from this kind of stuff.   

To take this back to the knife, I have split a friends thumb to the bottom of the nail with a rubber knife while knife sparring with only safety glasse....be careful.

Jeff

[Alex]

Joe!  Good to hear from you as well!  I agree that there is too much fencing out there as well.

Some training things I do:

1.  2 people sitting back to back; knife(or gun or bat, etc) is about 30 feet away on the ground.  Count to 3 and go for it....do you go for the knife or the person?  Up to you!

2. Standing Drill with Bogner Blade:  PROPER GEAR!!!!!, both of you standing close-quarter; one guy goes ALL out...stabbing, slashing, head, hands, arms, leg, eyes, groin and the other guy does a couple "passy-passy" things and tries to catch the weapon bearing limb...takedown, etc.  Double knives is fun.  Stick...DEFINITELY proper gear...finishes are up to you or whatever happens.

3.  Real knife work.  This is just something WE do here.  It's  definitely NOT for everyone and I AM NOT advocating this FOR anyone!  Am I attempting to cover my ass my writing this? Absolutely.  It's very controlled and we bring out the real edges every once in a while just to maintain our perspective.  This is probably a good forum topic on it's own; so I'll start a thread...

Just some of the stuff we do here.

[Mr. Barnett]

3.  Real knife work.  This is just something WE do here.  It's  definitely NOT for everyone and I AM NOT advocating this FOR anyone!  Am I attempting to cover my ass my writing this? Absolutely.  It's very controlled and we bring out the real edges every once in a while just to maintain our perspective.  This is probably a good forum topic on it's own; so I'll start a thread...

Just some of the stuff we do here.

Hello all,  interesting threads indeed.
Pulling out those live blades every once in a while does put things into perspective.  I have and do continue to do that.  it takes alot of effort to not cut someone, after 2 hours of cutting someone with dulled edges.  Yes, I did cut my student.....lightly, but the point made was, a nick anywhere with a sharp knife is bad, but a full out cut in the middle of chaos would have severely hampered the use of his right arm.    i felt terrible.  after all, i just pulled my cippit against a roundhouse, and made ever so slightly a flick, super lightly, and viola! white colored flesh beneath.  it didn't bleed, it just opened.  so, to the hospital we went.  I had to explain to his dad what had happened.  That was the worst part.  His dad, being a fireman, didn't have too much to say, and was rather cool about it.  Anywayz, the point i was going to make is, You have to be carefull with others, and yourself.  I got the big bowie out, and was lettin her rip.  I realized, that my grab hand was doing the grabbing, and on the downward thrusts in practice, that blade was coming awfully close to my legs.  So, in combat, you may well whack the crap outta yourself.  Be familiar with your tools!  I personally pass that big bowie back and forth, reverse and sabre grip between my legs as if dribbling a basketball in order to be familiar with those aspects. 
just a thought.
Gerald.

[Joe Hubbard]

Hey Gerald

How the hell are you?  Long time no speak!  Where are you?  Are you in France or Texas?  Hope you are well and hangin' in their buddy.

Best

Joe

[Mr. Barnett]

Hey Joe, and all!!!
glad to see that there are a large body of users, or is that users with large bodies. lol....
I'm still in F@#$%!, and the weather has been great.  glad that there are intersting threads going on.
Nice knife.
Gerald.

[usks1]

Gerald,
You gonna make the Kaju camp in December?

How are the boys comin along?? Don't cut them all up, you will be training solo.. I thought I taught you better than that. :-)

later

Dean.

[Mr. Barnett]

ah hell, it was just a flesh wound.
as for the camp, i am in negotiations with the other half,  we will see how that pans out.
Gerald+-