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  • February 08, 2012, 06:32:05 AM
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Author Topic: Dog catcher?  (Read 2377 times)

TAC

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Dog catcher?
« on: July 09, 2009, 01:22:21 PM »

Hi guys

Anybody know what this 'secret technique' is? Seem like simply blocking the knife-arm with the forearms and then transitioning to a 'two-on-one' type hold.


Sharif
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 01:34:19 PM by Hock »
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Hock

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 01:25:02 PM »

Its just an X-block to the side, arms detached and wide.
Almost any adult can quickly see through its advertised mysticism.
Being the guy with a knife can be a great advantage, and there is no one, two or even three pat cures against him.

Reprinted from an earlier post:

We just discussed on another section about three weeks ago, how the X-block starts at the wrist, contact wrist- to-wrist and then technically opens up one-arm-high, one-arm-low, and not touching arms - what many call the zone block. So, there is kind of an "X-block continuum." Basically you "V", zone block to the right or left and then head butt, then follow-up with something else. And yes, X-like, crosses are called Crossada.

But, lets look at the big picture. The knife attacks stab and slash in thrusts or hooks, in saber or reverse grips:
1 - saber thrust on the clock corners and center axis
2 - saber hooking thrust on the four clock corners
3 - saber slash slash on the clock corners
4 - reverse grip stab thrusting on the 4 corners and center axis
5 - reverse grip stab hook on the 4 corners
6 - reverse grip slash on the four corners.

The two main attacks for all of the above are "long or short:
1 -  Longer: a power elongated lunge thrust or elongated slash
2 -  Shorter: a pumping jab stab or shory snappy cuts

The Dog Catcher block
The zone block and two-arms parrellel and almost together, medical science says are the two common human protective  responses. There are other blocks, but these two are very, very natural.  In the big picture, one should cover all four corners of their body and the center, not just left side or right sides.

The main counters to common blocks are:
1 - Cut the block
2 - Re-direct on another line
3 - Trapping hands to clear the block

The so-called, Dog Catcher does use the "opened" X, zone blocking on the right or left side? (What about the common high or low, 12 or 6 o'clock attacks?)  This arm spread is supposed to create a "V" and catch, or stop the knife from re-directing on another line. (Not that all knife thugs know to re-direct)

But review this through the counters to common blocks.
- Cut the block. The knifer can jab back the knife back and cut the zone block, spoiling the dog catcher.
- Trapping invasion. The knifer can inject his hands and trap/disable the zone block, spoiling the dog catcher.
- If he tries to re-direct? Now, he might get his weapon arm fouled up in the "V" created by zone block. The Zone block has a little merit here.

Since no counter-knife move is perfect, getting one out of three possibilities is not bad. But... the next suggested move is head butting. Yes, head butting. Since the zone or "V" must linger in place for a second to prevent the re-direction, the next prescribed step is to head butt the knifer's head.

This is not my idea of a good step. One, you could stun your self while you are fighting a knife attacker. Two, we have experimented a bit with body positioning. Given the many numbers and directions and speeds of knife attacks, a lot of times the stabber's head is simply just not near a possible head butt! I think Denny also shows many options. That is just smart, but the general impression round the market place is you must do a head butt. And they work ALL THE TIME!!!????

This respsonse, AS ALL COUNTER-KNIFE responses is quite limited.
It is not perfect or universal, but I really don't think anyone ever said it was! It seems to me to be more like a combat scenario, a work-out rather than a cure for all stabs and all slashes. 

Summary
<>There is no universal cure to the knife attack. The attacks are way too diverse. I really don't think Marc ever expects it to be. It is just a combat scenario option to practice.  Another option is to develop hand speed and forget the head butt and eye attack instead. Or forearm strike the throat. But, to each his own when doing combat scenarios. Your size, shape , skill and strength. I am 6' 3". I can't head butt a 5'9" guy trying to stab me.

<>This a VERY cool name for a marketing group and Marc Denny is a very smart guy. People made fun of the "Kali Tudo" name he invented but I thought it was pretty, damn clever. This is a clever, theme response to work on. It wil not cure cancer. 

Sooo, that is my impression from what some DB people showed me. None of them relayed to me that this was meant to be a perfect cure-all. Just a right-side/ left-side option versus a certain stab or slash.   

The Dog Brothers are one of the few, surviving, Filipino style, systems out there and they do good work. I think people see a new marketing name and somehow word gets around that Denny, or whoever, thinks he has invented the cure for knife attacks. But, I am sure Marc does not think this is an ultimate cure-all. He is just way too smart for that. Its a theme work-out in amongst many theme work-outs to explore.

Sooo, get good at that one if you want. Save up and get the DVD and check it out. Surely there is some more interesting things on there. (I have not seen it, I just suspect Denny will have some cool things on it)

And yes, the split-arm response is kind of a crossada in FMA talk, from tight wrist x-blocks to open one-arm-high, one-arm-low blocks.
 
Hock





 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 01:37:46 PM by Hock »
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Adventure

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 03:53:00 PM »

Hock,

Do not forget the HEADBUTT that goes with this. You basically guide the head into his. You come in low with your Catcher bringing your head up & into his.

Hock

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 04:22:33 PM »

Yes the head butt.

Some people, even some of the Dog brothers think that I claim head butts just don’t work. Not true. I actually think they work very well, perhaps too well, as brain splash may come back on to you. And slinging your head around like a mace (usually with neck motion) is not a wise idea. But a bit of a top of the head solid neck ram to the chin/face can be quite good.

I think that whole little ad campaign movement has petered out anyway. But I support the work of Marc Denny and Gabe Suarez. I like those guys, like what they do and they are smart guys. You can’t go wrong in a Gabe gun class. Marc Denny is one of the last Filipino guys in a very, very tough market and he needs recognition for his long work and support from all us.     

Everyone should go see them when possible.

Hock


TAC

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2009, 06:44:42 AM »

Thanks for the reply, Hock. That was very helpful. Am I right in assuming that with the Catcher, the closest arm is the high reference the the furthest the low? Either way, I think as long as the 'block' is accompanied with forward pressure and not any dancing around or back-peddling then it sounds good to me.

I too give a big thumbs up to Denny and Suarez.
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Hock

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 08:06:07 AM »

People make fun of the traditional karate x-block, then wind up doing a form or variation of it anyway. And due to their lack of martial arts training, or modern, brainwashing to make fun of it, make fun of something they are actually doing.

OR! They do this, and think its bloody new! Like they have invented something new!

You can you a variation of forearm cross-over ("X-Block") in combat clock positions the basic 12,3,6,9 or the whole clock.

It was always really suck to be the gun without the knife. And there is no easy, quick cure, or one way to solve the problem.

Hock
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 08:12:06 AM by Hock »
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Adventure

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 01:57:26 PM »

Thanks for the reply, Hock. That was very helpful. Am I right in assuming that with the Catcher, the closest arm is the high reference the the furthest the low? Either way, I think as long as the 'block' is accompanied with forward pressure and not any dancing around or back-peddling then it sounds good to me.

I too give a big thumbs up to Denny and Suarez.

SH,

Yes. You are basically attacking the aggressor. (Forward pressure on the knife attacker). My DBMA Instructor Mike Ritz says "Stealing the aggression."   

TAC

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 04:42:44 PM »

Yep, that forward pressure is so important in a dynamic knife attack. But because it's so difficult (even, unnatural) to do many instructor's don't get it and teach all kinds of bobbing and weaving and parrying all kinds of weirdness in a knife attack. Anything but forward-moving aggression is highly dangerous. 'Stealing the aggression'... I like it :)
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Hock

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 05:26:39 PM »

Its like football or rugby with a knife.

All the drills with all those moves are just meant to be used in half-a-second, yet people get crazy over them and over-emphasize the flow drill. Losing their way.

"Stealing the agression" - too cute a line for me. Must there be a cute, sales pitch line line for everything?

Hock
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 05:29:37 PM by Hock »
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Adventure

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 05:29:21 PM »

Football with a knife.

All the drills with all those moves are just meant to be used in half-a-second, yet people get crazy and over-emphasize the flow drill. Losing their way.

"Stealing the agression" - too cute a line for me. Must there be a cute, sales pitch line line for everything?

Hock

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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 06:06:10 AM »

I didn't get the Dog Catcher concept at all.  It is based on a Pekiti passing drill for starters and the guys demonstrating on the DVD look as though they are having problems with it.  The other cute marketing ploy was how Mark Denny tries to sell it as he has been keeping this under wraps for years and now and only now he will show it to you.  I am all for clever marketing, but there is a way to do that without blatantly BSsing. 

The Dog Catcher offers nothing new and IMO is very limiting.  I show a much more detailed and comprehensive method for controlling the knife wielding arm on my 2nd DVD Contract 2:
 
http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product333.html

One comment on this type of entry- applying that forward pressure only works when the knife attack is committed.  A common training error is when the feeder (guy w/ knife) is too evasive throughout the drill, as though he is sparring.  Something to think about because I have to correct this problem regularly with my students.   
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 06:20:38 AM by Joe Hubbard »
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Hock

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 08:35:44 PM »

Interesting to re-read again, as some of these theme topics have come up lately.

Hock

arnold

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Re: Dog catcher?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 06:18:36 AM »

So would it be the generation x block?
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