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[Hock]

I saw training films on how to do a Cross Fit, chin-up. It seems that they break it down into trick moves, momentum moves of swaying the body to swing up and get more chins.

But in high school gym class and in the Army, swaying and moving like that was cheating. Does Cross-Fit officially teach cheat chin ups?

Hock

[Kentbob]

They do teach cheating chin ups, but it's not really as easy as it looks, and in my opinion, takes a great deal of coordination and strength to be able to do properly.

Kent

[Ashblaster]

Doing a chin up with the "kip" movement is definitely a more sophisticated move, I think it develops more functional strength then a regular pull-up because you need overall body synergy to do it, not just strong back muscles.

[Adventure]

What is with "cheating" no cheating, you only cheat yourself.

There are Traditional Pull-ups, Traditional Chin-ups and there are "Kipping" Pull-ups/Chin-ups.

No cheating, just working different things. One pure static pulling strength and the other like Ashblaster said "Synergy of the body" to get you up.

Someone in the Military/LEO are not going to run up to a bar or tree branch then jump up and grab the bar, Dead Hang & do a Chin/Pull-up. They will want to get up it the fastest way possible and that way is using the whole body in the movement. Not cheating just a different movement pattern.

[Hock]

Tell that to the nasty drill instructor yelling in your ear.

Then when they take you to the dreaded, "special PT class" to pass the PT test. Explain it again. (I didn't attend these as I did the correct ones, but I remember others who did attend these "troubled" sessions. They really were like the movie "Offficer and a Gentleman")

I do think that cheating can develop various strengths. I have have done improper curls for example to challenge my arms. Instructiors would "Tsk-tsk. Bad form." All kinds of chin ups are better than no chin ups. I thought it was funny that they taught a classic cheat version.


Actually a complete dead hang and chin-up may well, may take more muscle and more exercise to do a "cheat" chin up? Then return to a complete, lifeless dead hang.
Can you make this same observation with push-ups?
Who cares about a cheat push up?
Just fudge here and there.


Hock

[Adventure]

It's not about cheating, one can always look at it like that if one wants too.

It is about doing the most amount of work in the least amount of time.

When the DI is yelling you do it the DI way....but on the battlefield the DI will not care if you did not do a static dead hang pull-up, only that you got up on that wall, tree, bar etc....(what ever barrier you want it to be).

It is about the function of the body and making training as functional as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qChwsQy7IA

[Hock]

Not sure off the top of my head where police officers or soldiers with gear would actually do a chin up facsimile. I am sure there would be an anecdotle example from somewhere. How many times is there a bar like object to leap to, swing and momentum yourself up...TO YOUR CHIN ONLY...then go right back down! When you vault a wall or fence, there is no body swing or "kip," such as in an obstacle course. Which is more likely a possibilty and allows no...cheat moves...as the cop or soldier would hit the flat wall, hang and pull up in a manner from a dead hang and have to move beyond achieving mere chin height. Probably the troop would run up to the object, leap to catch the edge. Pull up to ARMPIT height, not chin, and throw a leg over.

Vaulting a wall or fence would be functionalizing strength. Reality applications. I think dead hang chin-up fits the bill better. If the doctrine is reality functionization? Why not chin and armpit up and vault something as an end product? I guess its a doctrine issue.

The pure chin up would be a general, strength exercise probably.
I guess an expert would know which version of a chin up would actually create more functional strength for real world tasks.

How and does that apply to the simple "proper" push up?
Okay to do like...sloppy push-ups? Momentum push ups. The chest doesn't have to really touch the ground?

Armpit up! Man!

Hock

[Adventure]

You got me...

But you can take someone that cannot do a dead hang chin/pull-up and get them Kipping 1st for a few months & then see them pull off dead hangs that they have never done before.  And the Idea is to give them the strength to pull themselves up on things that they can reach or jump up & reach. (And sure you can get them to do it other ways, but this way they are learning to get up on things a lot faster.)

The crazy thing about all of this is Pro sports teams & Olympic trainers have been training people with all this information for years only WE the general populous have been feed the Traditional 30mins Cardio & then hit the weights for awhile & that is good enough.

The Fitness Industry mostly defines FIT by how far you can RUN, BIKE, SWIM;

(Outside Magazine crowned triathlete Mark Allen “the fittest man on earth” (http://web.outsidemag.com/magazine/0297/9702fefit.html). Let’s just assume for a moment that this famous six-time winner of the IronMan Triathlon is the fittest of the fit, then what title do we bestow on the decathlete Simon Poelman http://www.decathlon2000.ee/english/legends/poelman.htm) who also possesses incredible endurance and stamina, yet crushes Mr. Allen in any comparison that includes strength, power, speed, and coordination?)

and completely miss all the other aspects of fitness: Power, Speed, Stamina, Agility, Coordination, Accuracy, Strength, Balance, Flexibility and Cardiovascuar/Respiratory endurance. 10 general skills that should have a balance in our lives for general health.

You can specialize in one or more, but how does that help Joe Citizen OR Joe LEO/Solider/Marine/SecOps. They need to be prepared for anything at any time. They need balance in all those fitness skills, so as to be ready for the unknown. 

[Hock]

I think it falls back to what I have been writing about in my blog, last month
http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/08-09/index.htm

and the next month
http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/09-09/index.htm

Start with cross-over skills
Then reduce the abstract

Cross-over general fitness skills that involve much of what Joe Hubbards find - "Do this first" article as a starter. Then do funky stuff as it relates to what you do, like a sport or a job. Reduce the abstract.

I guess the trouble is what does an advanced person need if they are not a cop, or an EMT, Fireman or soldier, or play serious sports. Just seek heath and strength I guess.

Hock 

[Kentbob]

A chin up facsimile does indeed come into play when you have to climb up over a wall, as I have had to do a couple of times.  It's not fun.  Who knows, you may have to figure out a way into a second story window, or first floor window that just sits real high.  These things are not standard in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I would imagine many other third world countries. 

My understanding of the CrossFit approach is that the chinup-pullup is only a rest stop on the way to doing a full muscle-up, chinning the bar and then pressing yourself up to waist level with the bar.  That is the real movement, BUT, you get these recruits who can't do chinups, what are you supposed to do with them when you have a wall to get over?  It's rough when a guy can't pull his weight over a wall.  Really puts the damper on the assault force, if you know what I mean.

Kent

[hessian1]

  The goals of the two methods are what may make both acceptable. If your goal is upper body strength through the pulling muscles then the dead hang pull up is the more appropriate.

   If you enter an anaerobic conditioning component, which is a common Crossfit goal, the kipping variation makes more sense to achieve that end.

Keep safe and train hard/smart,  Mark H

[Hock]

Anaerobic training is shorter than aerobic training in duration (less than two minutes), in which oxygen is not a limiting factor in performance, and requires energy from anaerobic sources. These energy sources involve the utilization of phosphagen and lactic acid by the athlete’s body; and enables them to perform brief, near maximal muscular activity (<2 min). Events, or activity that lasts up to 30 seconds in length, rely almost exclusively on the phosphagen system.

Activity that lasts from 30 seconds to 2 minutes, begin to rely on lactic acid (again, any activity beyond two minutes becomes aerobic training). These energy systems are effectively developed using an interval training system. It is important note that although one energy system may be predominate for a given activity, all systems are in use to some degree during anaerobic, or interval training.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

10 "cheat/kip" chin ups
10 dead hang chin ups
How could one chin up be different and better than the other for anerobic conditioning...component?

Hock

[Kentbob]

Well.....do you ever do pushups on your knees?  Like when you're just trying to rep out?  I do.  I guess that can be considered cheating, the same as if you take weight off the bar when you're trying to finish a set.


Kent

[Hock]

Actually, I don't do push ups anymore!
I do other stuff.
But I do think that "cheating" through some steps is better than not doing anything and can maybe get you through the whole move. It all depends on the move. Just like kipping chin-ups won't help a soldier climb into a two story window or over a tall fence. No space to swing. Enlightened trainers know this.

I was just really making a point about how wild west random/who-cares-anymore exercising can be. Anything goes! I wonder where this leads everyone too next. The next gen-fad. I'll bet it will a move back to the basics. All those boring, basic hand weight and bar moves.

Lets see in about 3 to 5 years.

Hock 

[Mike Gillette]

The author of the 'Do This First' article is Dan John, an exceptional strength coach who actually has considerable connectivity to the CrossFit world.

The kipping vs conventional debate actually doesn't exist in CF-land. They do both. You can consider one to be a 'pure strength' movement and the other to be a 'skill-strength' movement along the lines of certain kettlebell exercises.

(Disclaimer: I have no stock in CF, do not train using their 'conceptual model' and I have specialized goals that would not be adequately met using the CF structure).

If you look at any one CF workout, you might easily conclude that CF people 'flip tires' do 'kipping pull-ups' perform 'box jumps' or whatever else it was that you saw and that is 'all they do'.

There are a couple of problems with this type of analysis. The first is that unless you're watching a CF group who follows the 'Workout of the Day'  or (WOD) as posted on the CF website to the letter... you may not be watching a CF workout.  The 'official' CF workouts possess considerable variety and will (eventually) address absolute strength and power development. But it will be addressed in a way that does not prioritize it any more than endurance or metabolic conditioning is prioritized. The CF follower wants 'everything' as opposed to any one thing.

But here's the thing, there are a bunch of 'licensed' CF coaches who do not follow the WOD. What they're doing is using the CF 'principles' and cooking up their own workouts. So are they doing CF? They believe that they are. But we're now talking maybe over a thousand people across the country doing their own 'interpretation' of CF. That makes CF a lot harder to quantify.

Sometimes these workout modifications are logistics-related. For example. Progressive FORCE Concepts (PFC) runs a CF gym in Las Vegas. But at the moment they do not have any Concept 2 rowing machines. These machines are a CF staple. Further, many PFC CF sessions take place out in the 'field' where equipment is minimal and frequently improvised.  So if you saw THOSE workouts you might conclude that CF people work out with ammo cans full of sand, a couple kettle bells, and wear helmets and rucksacks while training.

And while those 'field' workouts might look random, the person who designed them will get great results from them. And this is because that person is a great fitness coach, not because a weekend CF certification taught him everything he needs to know.

CF is like anything else. I can show you some CF guys who would absolutely kill you and I can show you some CF punks. It is still all about the individual, and moreover, it is really about the individual CF coach. I know some brilliant CF coaches, who know and do much more than what is espoused within the confines of the CF model. And I've met some CF coaches that know only what CF has told them.

In the end this almost becomes a JKD-like debate. And the debate would become meaningless if everyone would simply do what Jim McCann says and "Train like a madman".