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[gematriot]

Sherlock Holmes and Wing Chun?

Sifu Eric Oram has trained Robert Downey Jr for over 6 years in Wing Chun. They have done 10 films together, including Iron Man, Iron Man 2, and Sherlock Holmes.

Sherlock Holmes, of all the films, allowed a perfect opportunity for Robert and Sifu Oram to use wing chun - in its raw form - for a character. It served as a base for the fighting style of Holmes (who was described in the original books as being a skilled martial artist, but never before utilized).

Sifu Oram was largely responsible for choreographing Robert's/Sherlock's fights (as opposed to Watson's/Jude Law's = Richard Ryan), trained Robert for the sequences, doubled Robert in the film (as his fight double), and even directed the full contact/bare knuckle sequence between Robert and British stuntman Dave Garrick. (And yes, the contact you see in the film is REAL!)

Many of wing chun's defenses, attacks and counter attacks (and to a degree, principles) can be seen throughout the film.

(From http://www.lawingchun.net/)

[Hock]

From that Oram webpage...
"Si-Fu (Master) Oram has taught Wing Chun for over 23 years and is one of the world's most senior Instructors under Grand Master William Cheung - the man who taught Wing Chun to Bruce Lee and was considered by Lee to be the "ultimate martial artist."

Who taught Bruce Lee Wing Chun?

Hock

(if it is this William Chueng? Currently of Australia called "ultimate?
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/
That is the WRONG Bruce Lee "teacher/work-out partner" called "ultimate" there is another "Cheung" that Lee worked with and the Austalian William Chueng - being the skunk that he is - capitalized on Bruce Lee's comment compliments of a "Cheung.")
I'll think of his name after I take my brain medicine...


Hock

[gematriot]

Grand Master William Cheung - the man who taught Wing Chun

William Cheung (of Australia) has always maintained that Yip Man instructed him to teach Lee (highly unlikely). Most other instructors hold that Lee´s instructor was Wong Shun Leung (more plausible and verifiable).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cheung

Note...
In 1951, at the age of ten, Cheung started his training in Wing Chun Kung Fu under the late Yip Man. According to Cheung, it was from 1954 to 1958 that he was a live-in student of Yip Man and inherited the complete system of Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu.

As an official successor to Yip Man was not named publicly, some Wing Chun exponents have been involved in the politics of claiming to be the rightful successor. Cheung claims to be the only one taught what he calls the "Traditional Wing Chun" style, which he says was previously a secret, purer version of wing chun only taught to those expected to become the style's standard bearers. Cheung claims that all the rest of Yip Man's students were taught what he calls the "Modified Wing Chun" system, alleged to be a simpler and less effective style taught to outsiders. All of the other senior students of Yip Man, including the directors of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association (VTAA) and Yip Man's two sons, have disputed Cheung’s claims.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Shun-leung

Wong Shun Leung (黃淳樑; 8 May 1935–28 January 1997) was a Chinese martial artist from Hong Kong who studied wing chun kung fu under Yip Man (葉問) and is credited with training Bruce Lee. Wong reportedly won at least 60, and perhaps over 100, street fights against martial artists of various styles.

[Hock]

There were a number of articles in the 1980s martial arts magazines about the real "Cheung" that Bruce Lee worked out with and liked. And it ain't that scoundrel in Australia with the "secrets." It was common knowledge in JKD circles that he tied Lee's compliment of the real "Cheung" being an "ultimate martial artist" on to himself. This is should be tracked by Lee/JKD historians.

What a ploy.

There is nothing wrong with his Wing Chun material. I have touched hands with many of them and they are good, solid Wing Chun people. But he has just royally screwed and mistreated so many good people, I think he is a skunk full of fabricated sales shit to trick customers.
 
Hock  

[Kelly Knight]

Hi all,

Hock asked me to comment on this, so here I am! First off, here's my disclaimer:

• I have not seen the new SH movie. The wife and I went on opening day, stood in line with a million other people who were all there to see the same movie, heard that there was a $1.50 surcharge and...left. We'll see it sometime next week. My guess is that it's pretty good and if you like it, you should see the new(ish) Yip Man movie with Donnie Yen and the classic seminal Wing Chun movie, The Prodigal Son. Oh, and every SH movie you can get your hands on. They're all fun. I just finished seeing (for the umpteenth time) The Hound of Baskerville adaptation from Hammer Films - great stuff! I review a lot of movies like this and from just about every genre, so if you're interested email me and I'll send you the link to my new movie and TV review blog.
• I've studied and taught Wing Chun for many years. My lineage was from two Sifu within the William Cheung camp and I've personally trained with William Cheung at seminars here in the States. I left that organization about 7 years ago to follow my current Sifu, Dana Wong. Dana has integrated a lot of what other camps are doing and put his own spin on it, so what I do and teach is similar to what others are doing, but notably different in many ways (show me a teacher that doesn't do that nowadays?!).

So, having said all of that, back to the original question of Bruce Lee and William Cheung. I don't really want to get involved in that sort of discussion with anybody other than those that are interested in joining William Cheung's organization or the organization that I'm part of (since it's a vital part of our history and lineage). It simply doesn't matter to anybody else, except as trash talk...something I'm trying to avoid in my increasingly older years. It would make me extremely unhappy to hear somebody say such things about me, true or otherwise, so I make it a point not to do it to others.

Besides, the truth is somewhere in the middle of what everyone else says about it, depending on whom you ask - those that currently deal with (and want something from) him...and those that have been treated poorly by him.

Here are two constructive things I can add to this conversation:

• Learn from his mistakes and don't screw people over and expect to get away with it because you're some "Master" of this or that. And if you do make a mistake, man up, fix it if you can and try not to let it happen again. Hopefully, that's what he's doing. As I stated, I wouldn't know anymore because I'm not part of that organization and don't have any connections there anymore.
• I have copies of five or six letters from Bruce Lee to William Cheung. Only one is handwritten (and hard to read, frankly), the others are typed copies of originals that were supposedly typed originally (say that ten times fast). Make of that what you will. I'll be happy to post a scan here if I can figure that out. Is that possible? I guees it is with the Insert Image button. I'll do so, if anybody is interested.

If you were to ask me what my gut feeling regarding their relationship was (not based on anything I can reliably verify), I'd have to agree it was probably a situation where Bruce and William were training buddies. Maybe I'll get so lucky someday - get a training partner that I can use for my marketing that brings me scads of students! That would be pretty cool!

My longwinded two cents worth...have a great day!

Kelly Knight

[Hock]

Hawkins Cheung! Not Wong Shun Leung.

HA! I knew I wasn't crazy, and they had the same name.
Here is an old article by Hawkins
http://www.hawkinscheung.com/

As the 1990s story goes, "back in the day," Bruce Lee highly complimented HAWKINs CHEUNG (as a partner, not a teacher). Lee and Hawkins were classmates. William Chueng slobbed on to the quote saying that HE was the Chueng that Bruce complimented. He turned it into quite a campaign.

I seemed to recall seeing some William Cheung billboards (?) in Australia stating this "Bruce Lee said that" (I could be wrong about this billboard thing...maybe it was ads in Blitz?) But insiders complained that this "ultimate" compliment was really for Hawkins not William.

There is an old article out there that clarifies this compliment but I can't remember where or when. The 1980s?

Hock

[gematriot]

Hawkins Cheung! Not Wong Shun Leung.

Absolutely. I should have mentioned that earlier. Hawkins is a good example of someone who was Lee´s close friend and training partner, in and out of school, through many years, and has not turned that fact into a marketing campaign.
Regarding Wong Shun Leung (WSL)... If memory serves me correctly Hawkins mentions somewhere, in Inside Kung Fu, that both he and Lee, trained with WSL. I also seem to remember him stating that William Cheung claimed references to WSL as Lee´s teacher were spelling errors. My "hat goes off" to Hawkins for being a class act, very different from William Cheung.

[Hock]

Oh, and for the record...

I am not a JKD instructor. I've never had a JKD instructorship from any recognizable or credable JKD source. I have no dog in the JKD or Wing Chun hunt. I have done a lot of different martial arts since the 1970s.

(But I do know and really like Dana Wong of Australia, as does anyone who has met and worked with him)

Hock

[arnold]

Hock,
Note to self, you are crazy.
Just thought I'd point that out to you
You're welcome

[Dawg]

Hock,
Note to self, you are crazy.
Just thought I'd point that out to you
You're welcome

Now, if that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is!

When a crazy person calls you crazy, does that mean you're sane?
Just wonderin' what Sherlock Holmes or Bruce Lee would say about that.

[redcap]

A few years ago, on the 20th Anniversary of Willy getting put on his arse by that young Turk Emin Boztep at a Wing Chun Seminar in Germany... I made a post on the Blitz forum to ensure this historic event would not go unremarked. So much for doing the community a service! I copped a lot of flak until someone kindly posted the challenge Cheung had made in AFA magazine claiming he would fight anyone at anytime. Pity he was wearing traditional chinese slippers and he.. er slipped. That was his excuse.

When it happened news travelled more slowly than it does today and I believe the US martial arts press closed ranks around their Hall of Fame inductee but the word got out via a German magazine. I heard Boztep fell foul of the politics of his style and now teaches his own gig in Arizona or somewhere equally exotic.
Redcap





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgswuXGYzKY&feature=related

[Brian S]

Hi mate, just realised who you are.  Hope you're well!

As regards Will Cheung..... that event has sparked a myriad of amazing and mutually exclusive excuses for his poor performance against Boztepe including :-

Cheung actually won, but the video was edited

Cheung was forced to lose on purpose, and Boztepe's people were holding knives to the throats of innocent onlookers

Boztepe creeped up behind Cheung and hit him when he wasn't ready

Cheung was clearly playing with Boztepe, and chose that moment to demonstrate how effective Chi Sao was on the ground and, of course,

Them there slippery slippers.



At least it shut Cheung up for a while, with his "I'll take on anyone, anywhere with my one true Wing Chun system taught only to me by Yip Man nonsense.

[Brian S]

After literally seconds of dedicated investigation and research, I can reveal one of the best kepy Kung Fu secrets of all time.

Will Cheung seen here



is in fact....................

Will Young

(seen here blowig off the cobwebs from his Tan Sau, as he doesn't practice much these days)

[redcap]

I thought he was giving a hummer to his invisible 12 inch tall Leprechaun mate. G'Day Brian, getting better every day, thanks. I got some nice scars out of the whole thing. Should be able to claim shotguns, machine gun bursts and a nasty bayonet charge next time I Walt down the pub.
Redcap

[Brian S]

Grab a drink for Bryan.  He's the forum's very own genuine 100% Walt!