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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • February 08, 2012, 04:48:22 PM
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Author Topic: Here we go again  (Read 3544 times)

Bryan

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2010, 11:58:28 AM »


http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/millom_mum_dies_in_savage_knife_attack___stabbed_41_times_1_670101?referrerPath=news/

Miss Marshall’s 15-year-old daughter, who cannot be named for legal reason, later told police: “He was looking at my mum dead weird. He was scary.

“Then he jumped my mum and started hitting her and hitting her. Then he got his penknife out and started to cut her throat. It is all a blur. He went into the kitchen to grab a knife. I tried to stop him and reason with him but he just pushed me away.

“I grabbed Hannah and put her in her car seat and turned her away from what was happening.

“I was running around like a headless chicken. I didn’t know what to do.”

The teenager left her sister in her seat and ran for help. Hannah then followed her out into the street and a neighbour ran to Claire’s aid.

Mr Bentham continued: “The defendant attempted to cut Claire Marshall from ear to ear.

“Finding his penknife inadequate, he went into the kitchen for a larger knife.

“My Lord, I want to emphasise at this point that neither girl could have done any more than they did to save their mother.



  Here this poor lady was stabbed 41 times as her fifteen year old daughter ran around and could do nothing to stop him. You try that shit in a middle class neighborhood in Arkansas and the girl would have more than likely shot the guy and killed him. About the only way to kill somebody there is jus to get the drop on them, there aint much of this murder without a defense stuff going on.

  What if a unarmed cop showed up just as this guy was about to stab this woman to death? What would happen? Anything diffrent, maybe the cop would get stabbed too? Why not have a armed cop who could engage the guy with a firearm if needed?

  Mick, you pointed out that buying illegal guns is more expensive in England. Money never stopped anyone from getting a gun that wanted one. When I first got to Asia the price of an AK47 was fifty bucks on the black market. You can still get them pretty easy but not for fifty bucks as many were sold to Indonesia at the end of the conflict in Ache. Lots of grenades floating around, Id say about one person a week gets fragged in Thailand. A few months back an executive was tied to tree and had a grenade go off blowing him into two pieces, the investigation closed  it as a suicide.

Mick Coup

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2010, 12:27:33 PM »

Another horror story dug out to prove a general point with a specific?

As I have said numerous times, it is easy to play this game, and pointless - but I typed 'Arkansas murder' into Google and got:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7727071

Can't remember this sort of thing happening in the UK?  It was in broad daylight and surely there would have been plenty of gun-carrying public to stop it? Comparing these incidents is a futile exercise, as I keep trying to point out - but you keep digging 'em up as if they are some sort of proof of the terrible lives we lead in the UK, cowed by the rampaging criminals we are powerless to resist.  You just don't get it do you?

Illegal guns are hard to get hold of in the UK - that's it.  If you have enough money you can buy anything, anywhere - but for the average street criminal it's a big deal to get your hands on a firearm, unlike in the US, so certainly the lack of money, coupled with the lack of availability, does stop people getting hold of them - or they would be everywhere.  It's not that the criminals don't want them - quite the opposite - but they are rare - unlike in the US.

If an unarmed cop - like Brian, the yellow-bellied coward mall-cop that he is - had showed up, maybe he would've got stabbed too.  Funny how our police do manage to arrest people armed with knives and don't all get stabbed to death in the process - do any armed US cops ever get stabbed?

I have no clue at all what obscure point you are trying to make regarding AK47's available for $50 in Thailand, or grenades for that matter - this ain't Thailand, and one person per week doesn't get fragged here.

Mick

Hock

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2010, 02:13:19 PM »

Considerable amounts of British police are being taught to use handguns. More each year. Tasers are being issued too. Tasers can handle a lot of close quarter problems, such as people with knives.

Having been to the UK about 16 times and training numbers of police there from all over the UK, invited by acadamy cadre, I believe I have an inside perspective on the subject of them being armed with firearms...the pros and cons.

I for one will consider it a sad day if and when all British police have been forced into being armed everywhere and full time.

It can be done. They could do it, because the UK police are in whole, a very bright and highly professional group of of men and women. I have always been consistantly impressed by them and the manner in which they try to achieve. (They are at times boondoggled by their self-imposed, aspirations of high professionalism/political correctness.)

It would be sad for me because it would mean a surrender to really decaying circumstances. And I really would hate to see that happen.

Hock
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 02:20:05 PM by Hock »
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Brian S

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2010, 05:36:07 PM »

Considerable amounts of British police are being taught to use handguns. More each year. Tasers are being issued too. Tasers can handle a lot of close quarter problems, such as people with knives.

Not sure where this is from.

There has been an increase in the Tactical Firearms capability in my Force in the last few years.  But none since.  I don't know of any continuous increase going on.

As for Taser?  That is increasing.  I currently routinely command 4 Taser officers (out of a group of 4 Sergeants and 36 PC's).  I've had them for some months now, and should be getting a couple more qualified in the next few months.

Now, for Bryan, let's see how many times they've used Taser as we try valiantly to protect the public from this armed criminal army we appear to have in the UK.......  Hold on.... I'm counting...... errrr......... That'll be a zero.  None.  Zilch. 

Yes, we have violent offenders.  But none of them have been Tasered whilst I've been on duty in my policing area.  I'm sure it will happen.....  But Bryan's ignorant potrayal of the state of crime in the UK is so far off beam that I cannot put it into words.

Now it's time for an interlude where Bryan will dig up a single incident and believe it carries weight in a country populated by 60 million.....

 ;D
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Hock

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2010, 06:01:42 PM »

Brian S., I think you're right. With the recent increase of the taser, came a recent decrease of firearms. I was thinking about the last, oh...five or six years in general.

I think the UK will do a much better, more professional job controlling of the use of the Taser from the start. In much of the USA the taser use has degraded down to casual use on anyone who virtually sneers or hesitates at an officer in some cases. I have been told coast-to-coast, year-after-year about such casual taser use and I have attended large national police symposiums which cover taser subjects.  

No doubt you have seen the videos of old women being tased at a traffic stop, etc. One example. I have trouble accepting this. When I work with the officers in the US and they tell me they like the "quick" use of the taser and that they will not get hurt in ANY arrest/fight from the start...honestly it is hard to argue with this viewpoint. I understand in a way, but I feel uncomfortable with the rabid use of tasers as a cure-all for every heated arguement.

Of course not every officer in the USA does this. But I do see a trend.

Hock
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 06:38:01 PM by Hock »
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Brian S

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2010, 06:15:42 PM »

Ahem... I'm Brian.  Not Bryan! -  ;D

Yes, the authorities do get all high and mighty about the police use of force over here.  But it does help keep the less restrained officers in check to a degree.

Yes, you can beat someone half to death...... But you really do have to have a good reason to do so.  Same as re taser.  They have been used here. But not on crochety fat old women.
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Mick Coup

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2010, 02:27:54 AM »

I know that the taser 'use of force' criteria in a department over in SoCal has just been increased to the same level as the baton - possibly as a result of over-use, or maybe just to save on batteries, I'd prefer not to speculate!

This does mean that the street officers will be going 'hands on' more however.

I travel to the US at least twice a year to train mainly law enforcement personnel, and one of the main subjects I cover is 'officer survival' as it appears to be the weakest area within departmental training.

Either the decision-makers are ex-college linebackers, so don't see the need from a personal perspective, or else they are taser-crazy and rely upon it to the exclusion of everything else.  Incidentally, I'll try and get the stats confirmed, but they have a surprisingly high failure rate with the taser - surprised me anyhow...

I ask 'how often do you hit the range?' and the answer is pretty much always 'once a week' at least - often in their own time, buying their own ammo to boot.  When I ask 'how often do you hit the mat?' it's usually answered along the lines of 'once a year, to requalify...' as standard.

Next two questions are 'how often do you shoot someone?' - general answer to this is 'never...not yet' predictably - and then 'how many times do you go 'hands on' with someone' which apparently is a multiple times per week deal....

Some of the training I conduct is off the books, in the officer's own time and the excuses for not being able to attend are classic, ranging from 'it's my dogs birthday' all the way to 'there was this polar bear...' which I understand, I've been there and it's no different anywhere else I teach.  Thing is, if I brought along a tricked out Sig 550c or a nasty little M4 'Viper' with a big fat suppressor, I'd put good money on those same guys cancelling family holidays and the like, to make time...

Stuff you need, and absolutely use all the time as a certainly, but doesn't look cool and takes effort - minimal attention.

Mick

Brian S

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2010, 03:47:48 AM »

One of my good friends is a Custody Sergeant.  Arrested people get brought before him and he throws them in a cell.

At the moment he has had four people presented to him who were Tasered during the arrest.  Apparently it only actually worked on one of them......

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Professor

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2010, 07:51:23 AM »

You keep popping up and repeating this..... but then refuse to clarify what the question actually is.

Troll.

Bullshit.   The link to those questions have been added to many of your threads, the questions have been clarified too many times.   

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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Brian S

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2010, 02:15:02 PM »

And again..........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8513727.stm

Quote
Alabama shooting: professor charged as three die 
 
A biology professor denied a job promotion has been charged with murder after a shooting at a southern US university left three people dead.

Amy Bishop was apprehended outside a science building at the University of Alabama in Huntsville campus after opening fire at a faculty meeting.

She could face the death penalty if convicted, officials said. Reports said her husband was also being questioned.

US educational sites have seen numerous fatal shooting attacks in recent years.

The most serious occurred at Virginia Tech University in 2007, when a student killed 32 people before turning the gun on himself.

Harvard-educated

Local media reports in Huntsville say the shooting happened after Prof Bishop found out she had been denied academic tenure, which guarantees job security.

University officials said no students were involved

University spokesman Ray Garner said the three killed were the head of department and two other professors. No students were harmed in the incident.

Two of the three injured, also biology department members, are said to be in a critical condition in hospital. The third was reportedly in a "fair" condition.

The Huntsville campus in northern Alabama has about 7,500 students.

Prof Bishop is a neurobiologist who studied at Harvard University. She had joined the biology faculty as an assistant professor in 2003.


A Professor too.

 :'(
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2010, 04:11:08 PM »

A biology professor would be more dangerous without a gun.  She could make something in her lab and head down to the cafeteria and add it to whatever junk the cooks are serving. 
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Brian S

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2010, 12:34:34 PM »

A biology professor would be more dangerous without a gun.  She could make something in her lab and head down to the cafeteria and add it to whatever junk the cooks are serving. 

Not sure where you're going with this....  You could murder someone by drowning them too...... doens't discount 14,000 gun deaths per year.  Gun deaths.

G U N  D E A T H S.

Check this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8514730.stm

She killed her own brother 20 odd years ago.  yet still walked the streets and still got access to guns..... and then killed again merely because she didn't get a promotion?

Bryan thinks he's found one man who would now be dead without his gun (the home owner), but here's quite a few who would still be living without them.

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VicMackey

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2010, 04:42:10 PM »

Until either they allow students with concealed licenses to go to school armed or they run every person through a metal detector like they do in the courts, there are gonna be lots and lots of incidents like this going on around the country. Most of the incidents like this that take place are in areas (guns not allowed in colleges in this state) or states that do not concealed carry. When a population is disarmed in these so called "gun free zones" or when security measures are not in place, it empowers the criminal or mass murdering gunman to commit his/her shooting rampage. It seems we are beating a dead horse here on this issue. It is what it is in this country. And we just aren't giving up our gun rights just because of a few bad apples like these. If guns are so bad, then explain to me why crime is so low in gun-owning states like Vermont and gun-owning countries such as Switzerland? Again, no carry permit required in Siwtzerland and Vermont. As for the shooting rampages here in the US, it seems more like a societal problem (lack of moral values), not a problem caused by gun ownership.   
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
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Brian S

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Re: Here we go again
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2010, 01:51:09 PM »

Upside down, inside out.....

If guns are so good, just why do so many people get shot dead in the United States of America?

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