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[redcap]

My friend (also a former MP) has a full time professional facility teaching kickboxing, jujitsu/karate, MMA and so on. He has just opened a second school at a fitness gym and he is looking to increase student numbers, adults and kids. I have been helping him develop a marketing plan and sort out his branding and a few other tasks. I asked him how did he get new sign ups. His response was 'word of mouth'.

Local newspapers? Don't work. Demos at malls? Don't work. Flyers and letterbox drops? Don't work. Two for one, bring a friend etc? Don't work. Discounted rates? Don't work. Cross marketing with other local businesses? Don't work. He's been in business there for 12 years and tried virtually everything. Only thing that works apparently is... 'word of mouth'. Something of a cliche, wouldn't you agree?

So I am working on some ideas to generate more 'word of mouth'. My big plan so far is to introduce a course of additional instruction, free to members, called "Movie Fighting". I have developed a ten module course of instruction in stage fight choreography that will include the student getting their own 'show reel' and being able to train further in the craft. I figure this will generate some buzz, especially when we post clips on You Tube, they show their friends their show reel and so on.

Comments? Opinions? Better ideas?
Redcap

[Hock]

The movie fighting thing has indeed been tried a few times in the last...6 to 10 years here in the US.

Nobody remembers all who sponsored and hosted the "seminars." That should tell you something right there. There doesn't seem to be anymore. I think that the CDT "fallen star" Tom Patire tried one or two. Then Mike Depasqual of New York was part of one or two but...all quit doing them. If they really worked, these people would have continued doing them year after year in a big fashion.

But they had to have some hollywood stuntman there to be the worshipped star attraction, else how would they draw people or suggest they qualify to teach the category?

Wannabe actors might come, not the usual MA clientele.

Trolling with a very big net for a very few small fish. Its tough.

Hock

[redcap]

I'm working on the premise that most people consider themselves a movie star just waiting to be discovered to some degree or another (except us realists, of course). We do have access to a couple of 'names'. It isn't a course that provides any qualifications so we don't need to pretend we are experts. All involved have some experience in the craft and we don't need to make out we're Hollywood's latest thing. I think the problem with the programs you mentioned is that they took themselves too seriously, perhaps. If you search the web today you will find dozens of schools running courses... acting schools not martial arts schools. There is the demand from the trade but I also think there might be some interest from the student body.

It is a tough game and that is why I have opened the debate up, to see if anyone has anything I can have a go at. This idea doesn't have to be still going in a year's time, it only has to generate some 'word of mouth' buzz and bring in a few new students who will in turn... bring in more. Hopefully.

And yes, another reason why I don't run regular classes and rely on the income for my living.
Redcap

[whitewolf]

Redcap=try it-but dont put your life savings in it-keep your day  job- ww

[Hock]

And Redcap and allllllll...
On these business ideas?
Please remember that my responses are quite jaded. They are cranky and jaded and sometimes I should keep my mouth shut because an idea or too may work in a certain one in a certain place.

I really do not want to sound negative or unsupportive to anyone. I should not be so negative.

Hock

[Kelly Knight]

I vote for "go for it". What's to lose other than your time and energy? Your alternative is what...sit on your hands and watch your business tank?

Are there any local adult night school or community programs available? We've been fortunate with our collaboration with those sort of programs. Sure, most people that take those sort of classes are "grab and run" (IE they don't sign up for long-term programs), but it's been worth it for us. Here's the one we've been in for years:

http://www.chestercountynightschool.org/

Frankly, it's the best venue for teaching the Citizen's Self Defense course that we've found. We could not afford to send out the thousands of catalogs that they do....

And, we've gotten some long-term students out of it.

But, regarding your "Movie Fighting" seminar, why not? Throw the dart - it might hit something. Any other programs that you come up with are worth a try and something a bit different (even if it's been done before - and really, what hasn't?!?) might bring in an interested person or two.

Best of luck, Redcap!

Kelly Knight

[redcap]

Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement. As for being jaded and negative, I appreciate that too. I sometimes know more reasons why it won't work than possibilities that it might. But then I remember the hot dog man. He sold hot dogs for years, saved his money and sent his son to college. His son got an MBA and came home to thank his old man. Saw he was still on the highway selling hot dogs as he had for decades. He told his Dad the global financial crises was running riot, nobody had any money, it was doom and gloom and batten down the hatches. He showed him how he could take his savings and invest them and hopefully that would tide him over until hot dogs picked up again. After all, he had an MBA. The Dad thanked his son and went right back to his usual spot on the roadside, closed his stall and retired. He didn't have an MBA or know as much about the economy as his educated son. He just got up every morning and sold hot dogs to passing motorists, same as he had done for 20 years. Hell, he hadn't even realised the economy was in such poor shape! Next day there was a major pile up on the highway, too many people rubbernecking, trying to see where their hot dog vendor had gone to.
Redcap
PS: I'll give the community college thing a try, thanks Kelly.

[Joe Hubbard]

I don't buy that nothing works but word of mouth.  How did this guy test and measure all of those other methods?  Most likely, there was no testing and measuring to determine ROI. 

Everything is important to get your name out there.  The key is persistence, trial & error and continuous testing; for every good idea that eventually works, you'll probably have 20 that sucked and failed. You just have to keep on keeping on. 

The movie seminar is cool, but to add credibility, you really need to have a celebrity stunt guy to promote it.  Dave Lea put these stunt school seminars together quite successfully.

Joe

[arnold]

I always felt that I should have been a movie star. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody. Instead I work in finance and dislike most of the human race. Could this be the context of a new movie? And why not?! We've got an idiot in the White House, what's one more noodlehead in Hollywood?
Obama Man could do a flyby and cameo during the movie shoot.
BS could be the set pissboy.
Any other great ideas?

[Hock]

"What's to lose other than your time and energy?"

Well...there is thousands and thousands in printing and advertising.

A sucessful movie stunt man seminar would have to have a "movie guy" and be advertised in martial arts magazines over a reasonable period of time like two to three months. Then a reasonable sized location.

 - movie star and contacts   $$$$$
- adequate location             $$$$
- advertising                      $$$$
- time                               abstract $$$$ as you could be doing something else
- energy                           abstract $$$$ as you could be doing something else


Hock

[JimH]

Word of mouth comes after people have seen ,and tried,the product and found it to stand up to ,and for ,their needs.

The Stunt school thing is not worth the time and or money invested.
As Hock said people ,like Michael Depasquale have run them and they have large areas ,with stages and mats,cars and props available CHEAP and they bring in martial artists,Like Joe Hess and others,who have been in movies as stunt men and they do not make a killing on it.
Also where is the repeat business ?
In the next stunt school ?
How many will return after the first investment of time and money.

My instructor teaches security guard courses,Women self defense courses,College  self defense courses,most for free or at minimum cost and the majority of these produce zero to one person who shows interest and then they fail to return after the free introductory classes or after a few classes,as they were looking for the things done at the course rather than looking for an art/system which takes time and sweat.

Invest in Web pages and keep them up.
Hand out flyers.
Never give FREE intro classes,charge 10-20 dollars and make it applicable to the first months fee.
When they take the class ,ask them at the end if they enjoyed it ?
Pose the question so they say YES.
Then you say since you enjoyed it would you like to put tonights fee towards a months training ?
Get them to reply in the positive.
Then ask them to sign the forms for training for the month.

The more positive answers you can get them to give in your after class interview the better it is they will sign on.

Have students write positive things on the web site about the classes,allow it to be real  and not staged .

Students joining ,signing on and staying for months or years become your word of mouth.

All the Best

[redcap]

I also don’t believe that ‘word of mouth is the best (and only) way’. I would say my friend hasn’t done any proper quantative or qualitative market research over the 12 years he has been in business. I have introduced some customer satisfaction surveys and market research surveys and eagerly await the results. I do know that to call him on his belief that WOM is the only good thing would be wasting my time. He is as opinionated and Alpha-Male as any of us. Going head to head against his belief system is not the tactic to use. Far better to listen then demonstrate with action and he is man enough to accept he might have been a bit narrow minded.

I do think you are all suffering under the ‘Do It Big… No! DO It HUGE!’ mindset. The stage fight course is not about investing large sums of money in premises, props and people to lend their name. It is about generating some buzz amongst existing students to get them talking about the school to their friends.

Studies have shown that the best time to get a referral is that first couple of weeks when the student is so rapt they have found you. After that they tend to become guarded, their training time is their time away from the rest of their world and they don’t want to bring in someone from over there to here. So you need to stir the buzz again and take them back to the moment when they were so happy they had found something new.

We don’t need big names to draw a crowd, we are teaching an existing student base. We don’t need qualifications to gain ‘credibility’, we are not offering a career in movies or an AQF recognized certificate. The objective is to create some buzz. I agree with everything you have all said. It does take a lot of time and effort and $$$$$$ to do it big. It is more likely to fail. Etc, etc.

But I am reminded of a sign on the wall of our US Army exchange officer’s office when I was a young Combat Engineer:

“When you are up to your ass in alligators, it can be difficult to remember the original objective was to drain the damned swamp!”

He was Ranger qualified and a Vietnam veteran and tough as nails… for a Yank.  He was also a smart man and one I learnt a few good lessons from. Like this one. Keep the objective in mind at all times. Thanks for the input, it is much appreciated.
Redcap

[Hock]

But here's the deal...
Look at it from a baseball...well...cricket perspective

Big or small, you are having a "how to be a pro cricket player," and not you or anyone teaching has ever played pro cricket? I ain't going. Why should I?

Big or small, you are having a movie/TV stunt man event on how to be one, and no one has ever been one? I ain't going.

That may well be only talk about the deal.

Hock
(Before you get down to the swamp drain? You have to kill all the aligators first.)

[redcap]

I checked my original posts and have failed to see where I stated we would claim to teach people to be pro anything, baseballers, cricketers or stuntmen.

I have had training in stage fight choreography from Tony Wolf, a former student of mine and I of he. Tony was the FIghting Styles Designer for the Lord of the Rings Trilogy plus numerous stage combat gigs around the world. I have worked on several productions over the years but don't consider myself an expert by any stretch of the imagination. Other instructors at my friend's school have also worked in the industry so between us we have experience and expertise. But we aren't going to capitalize on it. I think you guys have been burnt by too many Aiziks, Wagner's and Levines.

I checked in case I had wrongly said we would be offering accreditation (I know that's a biggie in the States) and I couldn't find any reference to that because we aren't doing it. The concept is to provide an entertaining as well as instructive activity that generates some excitement which in turn should create some word of mouth promotion.

Hock, we aren't marketing this at you or your ilk. We are targeting followers, not leaders. People who join up, go to things, get involved... not people who invent, design, create, operate or take charge. Those people form their own schools and compete with us for the followers. You are looking at this from the point of view of how you would do this (or not do it). Fair enough but it is far more helpful if people would look at it from the point of view of the martial arts student, say 15-25 year old male, even a 6-14 year old kid and or their parents.
Redcap

[Hock]

"I have developed a ten module course of instruction in stage fight choreography that will include the student getting their own 'show reel' and being able to train further in the craft. I figure this will generate some buzz, especially when we post clips on You Tube, they show their friends their show reel and so on..."

So this is for insiders only? On like some kind of average, like 3 of the already 10 people you have, kind of thing? To create small-scale, word of mouth buzz? 

Well, anyway, get back with us on this project in a year and tell us how that worked out.

Hock