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[redcap]

I was discussing things stick the other day with some students when a young lad brought up a California based mob that like to hit each other with sticks in a park, call themselves cute names and so on. I mentioned that some of us had been doing the same thing before the internet and even before Panther put out videos. He wasn't sure who Panther was but he did know video tape came before CDs and DVDs and You Tube.

I said that very early on we stopped doing the 'whack! whack! charge in and wrestle' thing. We felt it was pointless given we were fighting with sticks. If you dropped or lost your stick, why panic and wrestle when you should be practising all those standing up disarms we had spent hours working on?  Tackling only exposed the top of your skull to a possibly lethal butt strike or your clavicle to a butt ruckle and face bar or whatever. I mean a stick is a nasty thing at grappling range if wielded well and isn't that the objective in training, to wield it well?

My thinking is that those that like to tackle and wrestle do so because they have a background in ground fighting. Either High school/collegiate wrestling, or Jujitsu/Judo or BJJ/MMA etc. I also do not hold to the statement that X% of all real fights end up on the ground. Half of the combatants might end up there but the other half are usually still standing and stomping. As a trained martial artist surely you should be doing your best to remain standing and putting him on the ground?

So the question is... How realistic do you feel it is to mix 'full contact', minimal protective gear stick fights with grappling? Most I have seen have a 'code' where as they go to ground people help them off with their helmets so they can grapple better. Nobody of course gets nasty with the butt of the stick, or eye gouges etc, yet the 'outcome' of the contest is often dependent on this final phase. A choke or arm bar is chased until the loser taps out. To me that is a contradiction in terms. It is supposed to be a stick fight with minimal gear to enhance realism, then it turns into a MMA cage fight for points and tap outs.  Comments?
Redcap

[juszczec]

So the question is... How realistic do you feel it is to mix 'full contact', minimal protective gear stick fights with grappling?

Sparingly.

Personally, I think training should reinforce "if you have a stick, put yourself in a position to use it."

Yes, there is a very big place for using non stick stuff when you have a stick and it should be incorporated into stick training but it shouldn't eclipse it.

Otherwise, throw the sticks and helmets away and wrestle.

Mark

[hessian1]

     The "training" you are refering to is the Dogbrother's "gathering of the pack" and it appears you are suffering from the group of blind men describing an elephant syndrome.
The gathering occurs twice a year which is where the above described behavior occurs,
otherwise the grappling is only a small part of the curicullum taught as a possible situation that may develope.  The developers came from the Inosanto Academy back in
the 1980's as a testing process for what the founders had learned. 
    This can be the problem when someone,including myself, developes an opinion based on a limited exposure to something.  This seems to have gotten worse with the internet as a source of knowlege.   Look into things far beyond the meager offerings of the internet before making a decision.

Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H
   

[juszczec]

My comments were made against the idea of training in that fashion on a day in/day out basis and didn't refer to what the Dog Brothers do when they get together.

FWIW, I really like those guys for thinking out of the box.

[Hock]

Those guys, sadly, are not thinking out of the box. They were part of the original box. That is what people in stick classes are SUPPOSED to be doing routinely. Since it seems too hard core (and by the way there is nothing wrong with 98% of the time training with padded sticks, gear and a wise coach) actual stick fighting has drifted off to a never-ending series of soft, paddy-cake drills.

It is a sad state of affairs for Filipino MA in general that people consider the Dog Brothers as special.

Hock

[redcap]

I totally agree. As I said, my lads were doing the same thing long before we had heard of the Dog Bros. They get a lot of the 'fame', recognition, kudos, call it what you wish because they were the first to manage the PR end of a stick fight. Good for them.

When we lost the taste for the padded stuff we had all matured to the point where we could go pretty full on but were skilled enough to handle our shots under duress and not accidentally or on purpose cause serious injury. Most of the time. One or two ouches happened but I have seen far worse in non-contact karate matches.

I too like the Dog Bros tapes and their credo of everyone remaining friends at the end of the day. I just think you need to really be aware of the limitations and the objectives.

I had two 'challenge matches' in Cebu when I lived and taught there. Some people called them 'Death Matches' as it was without any protective gear... but with rattan sticks. Honestly, if I thought for a second I was going to die, or kill my opponent, (or use kamagong or bahi) there is no way I would have done it. Who needs the hassle, the guilt, the risk? If they had been real death matches the Filipino guy would have hired someone to ride up on a motorcycle and have the pillion passenger cap me in the traffic on the way there. They don't mess around.

Without the helmet and gloves you do tend to become very aware of range, timing and leaving yourself open for counters. Can't say footwork ever entered my head but then after years of boxing and stick sparring I guess I just move around without falling over instinctively. If both of you rush in, the bigger and heavier guy usually gets off best. I was the bigger guy and these Filipinos weren't stupid. So it was a long, drawn out stalking game followed by rapid misses and then one or two quick hits and all over red rover. Being taller helped me both times. Both times I simply side stepped, struck wrist and head rapidly then got out of range of a counter. Not a kali-heaven-earth-untie-drunken monkey partner drill to be seen. But how often do we train simple stuff like that?
Redcap

[Bryan]

  I used a stick to turn the tide on a older bigger kid and whip the hell out of him with it all the way back in 1982 when I was nothing but a eighth grader. I will never forget that day as it was the last time a kid ever chased me home but I was more scared of my dad than the older kid. I doubt some will be surprised to learn I grew up having many fights as anyone with an imagination may have figured out I do not get along with everyone I meet.

  The story is pretty simple, a older, bigger, kid, chased me from the bus stop all the way to my front door right when my pops was coming out of the house. My dad  being a extremely hardcore hillbilly when it comes to territory and manliness screamed at me "You better whip his ass!" so I grabbed a mop handle laying up against the house and turned and struck the kid. He turned to run and I chased him, as he had a misstep I struck him across the back with a double handed baseball swing strike which I later learned ripped the hide right off his back.

It was about twenty minutes later when the boy and his mom pulled into the driveway in their car. She got out and spoke to my dad, my name is suchnsuch dontmatter PHD. and your son has attacked my boy for no reason. Just look at the whelps on my boys back here mr., as she pulled up his shirt. My dad introduced himself and calmly told her he had seen the entire thing and that's not at all what happened. The boy admitted he chased me home, later we became friends and got into much trouble together just as my dad predicted to her that day when he said "mam, by next year these boys will only be worried about cars and girls, nothing to worry about between the two of them."

  The point here is plenty of people discovered and used stick before the Dog Brothers. I dont like Dog Brothers but if one is interested in stick and stick alone they are a good resource. I just think they are overhyped with patriotism since 2001 to sell tapes and dvds when the reality is a much stranger story. As far as I know Marc Denny was a hippie back in the 70s that somehow avoided the draft and hung out with the anti war movement. He bragged about being at Woodstock and all that mess but he has never bragged about joining the military. He did have the balls to question my patriotism based on religion but that's not a surprise to me as I consider him another big talker, not much else.

  Fighting in a park with frineds is messing around in a controlled environment and teaches skills that may not transfer to a real fight against a violent attacker. Trying to present park fighting as evidence one is a blooded fighter is as dumb as calling a stick fight in the Philippines a "Death Match" when its nothing more than fun match. More on this later as I'm running out the door heading back to the gym.

[whitewolf]

Good story-heres one-its 1960-wew are on a med cruise (marines) I have the well deck watch checking the tie down chains on our helos-its 3am-one of the guys in the unit who i think is a ass hole-comes down the ladder and wants to fight- he is 6 ft weighes in around 210-i am 5"9 170 -so i pick up a equilizer- (crow bar) and chase him up the fucking ladder screaming ill kill you-he ran like hell-never bothered me again-
(thats my dog brother stick story)- stay  safe  WW

[Canuk]

Good story-heres one-its 1960-wew are on a med cruise (marines) I have the well deck watch checking the tie down chains on our helos-its 3am-one of the guys in the unit who i think is a ass hole-comes down the ladder and wants to fight- he is 6 ft weighes in around 210-i am 5"9 170 -so i pick up a equilizer- (crow bar) and chase him up the fucking ladder screaming ill kill you-he ran like hell-never bothered me again-
(thats my dog brother stick story)- stay  safe  WW

lol

[whitewolf]

OK Canuck-here is another from the wolf clan files of stories of stick fighting

Its 1968-Danang air base- I am the security chief of  my unit-CO says too many dogs
get rid of them-ok -

I say ill use a shotgun- answer is no-so one of my marines goes-grabs a dog-puts him in a 55 water barrel-attempts to drown it- dog will not go down-so 4 marines take the wooden top and try to cover dog-it will not go under-attempts to climb out-

Another Marine picks up a entrenching tool-smacks the dog on the head-hard-
dog goes under-cover goes on-dog drowns.

needless to say-we did not do that either any more-dogs are probably still running around the old strip today--WW

another stick story from the files of the wolf clan-sad but true

WW (ELB) "speed of light"