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[rasdj]

i believe that "the brain can't tell difference between real and imagined" is a leap made from studies that show the same/similar portions of the brain light up whether you are looking at an object or a picture of the object. can't take of the exact page/chapter but the book The Brain That Changes Itself mentions this. This tendency in the brain is why visualizations are a tool in the top athletes toolbox. obviously they are not top athletes because of Jedi mind tricks and alot of physical doing to stuff training happens.

[whitewolf]

JimH-i agree- along those lines a very good friend of mine (who is a Greek special forces type over in Athens) told me once the following.

To be alert-while walking in the street "listen" to what is behind you-prepare your self
as the sound comes closer. If it starts to come faster (footsteps) then you prepare yourself mentally (that would be turning on the switch)

You would move /react according to what is happening before it reachs you.
 
Hope that makes sense- ever sense then I apply that and pass it on to students.

Great for security/police/shoppers/travelers-it heightens your senses so to speak.

WW (ELB) "speed of light"

[Joe Hubbard]

This also stems from how people can create a “false reality” by convincing themselves that something is real.  In other words, if somebody convinces themselves that they are sick, eventually many of these people will become ill.  If somebody worries that something bad is going to happen, reinforcing this with daily affirmations of doom and gloom, often their false reality comes true.  If somebody dreams vividly, when they awake emotions that were evoked can carry over for hours before they rationalise that it was all just a dream.
Whether or not you will tell the difference between a real attack and a simulated one speaks for itself, but the brain theory allows somebody to rehearse the real event without going into a dangerous situation with a “dear in the headlights” mentality.

This is a pretty good book about the complexities of the human mind:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bright-Air-Brilliant-Fire-Revolutionary/dp/0465007643/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=II8IG515JOV7E&colid=3ETP6OMSDTLML

Is it real or is it Memorex?

Joe

[JimH]

Visualization ALONG with the physical can and does enhance performance,as the Visual exercise is supposed to allow us to see ourselves doing a physical activity and we can run though how it is SUPPOSED to be done
Then we MUST REPLICATE the Visual in an ATTEMPT to perfect the action,(which takes time and repetition)

I would disagree with the idea that Visualization allows us to rehearse Real Events with out being in a Dangerous situation,with a caught in the headlights effect.

I know MANY who train in Various Martial arts and they have trained,Visualized,and participated in sparring,reached various levels of Black Belt and when the REALITY of Conflict came on them they Froze and or failed to act in an immediate fashion and got their butts handed to them.

To me
NOTHING replicates REALITY of CONFLICT like the REALITY of CONFLICT.

If we are trainers and we present sport based sparring /fighting with no surprise,no immediate threat of injury then we are not going to PREVENT the caught in the Headlights freezing up when immediate threat faces the student.

If an individual does not have the immediate response to threat,(flip the switch),in them from childhood and or are not taught it,you can train and visualize all you want and you WILL NOT ,in the majority of cases ,flip the switch.
I say WILL NOT in the Majority of cases as there maybe a stimulus that will drive you to act immediately,maybe a threat to a loved one on the scene or something else,but in most cases if you never experienced a REAL Threat and NEVER actually flipped the switch to action,you most likely will not.

Visualiztion is a tool to perfect an action ,not take the place of performing the action.

If mental visualization ,were all that were needed or enough to get us to be able to do something and or cause us to flip the switch,then all those who do GAMING would be Stealthy military possibilities and or UFC capable street fighters.
Yet most who play these games cannot even pass the basic physical to pass the Military entrance exam.
I do not fancy their chances in a real encounter on the street.

Is the mind a powerful tool ?
Yes
Can the mind and visualiztion create a STATE  from which we function ,for good or bad ?
Yes (proven in Robbins seminars,proven in acting classes)
It must be coupled with performance to allow physical responses to happen.

Again Visualization is a tool to Help performance,not replace actual performance.

My opinion

Great discussion

[whitewolf]

JimH-yes good discussion-to continue-i was a little confused about  the statement concerning students of "gamming" not being able to pass the physical exam for the military have to disagree on that one-the students i see who come for training in muy tai,kick boxing,judo,and my street self defense for the most part are healthy-some out of shape yes but most ok to pass the initial test you mentioned.

 I have also heard that some police department trainers now take a new recent grad  and ask them questions like -OK you are on patrol and see_________________-what do you do? The new rookie might never been in a fight or altercation as of this -
what do ytou think JimH??

WW

[Joe Hubbard]

Hi Jim

I absolutely agree, but do feel that the reality of a conflict can be passed down through progressive training by people who have experienced it in order to better prepare someone for combat.  Of course, nothing is like the real thing, but as they say, "Fortune favours the prepared."  Visualisation is just one small piece of the puzzle.

Joe

[Benjamin Liu]

"Gaming" probably refers to people sitting around playing video games, though in the past it referred to people playing role-playing games like D&D.

Visualization used in mental rehersal for learning or perfecting skills isn't just daydreaming.  It is actually work, and in some ways performing 100 perfect visualizations of a technique is more difficult than just doing 100 physical reps.  It is not something for lazy people.

For those who do not already know the skill to be learned, visualization will help in learning it, but physical practice is needed to condition the body to use what it learned.  For example, if someone uses visualization to learn martial arts techniques, and uses it properly, but does not have the flexibility nor fitness to perform the skill, it won't do them much good.

[Hock]

...or thinks a lot about swimming and then drowns in a pool in the first 30 seconds.

Hock

[whitewolf]

blub blub blub-gone under---ww

[JimH]

Gaming/Gamers are people who sit and play video games ,for my purpose I will use ones that play UFC,any Martial arts,or HALO and any such military game.

Recent US military stats say that 75 percent of US military Entry Aged Men and Woman CAN NOT Pass the physical for entry into the Military.

When we say recent Grads in regards to Police are we speaking High school or college Grads or Police academy Grads ?

If the question is being asked of untrained persons then it is a question used to see how they will react.
Do they report back and or call for back up or do they go forward.

If the question is to a new recruit grad it is to see if ,now that he/she is on patrol,does he/she remember what they were taught to do in certain situations.

This line of questions does not have to have anything to do with having had actual encounters,nor does it require one to visualize the scenario,ponder it,run various inputs and out comes and provide an answer,it can just be on the theory of the education to that point.
Many times an Old Timer on the job will say:
What were you taught to do for this?
Then after an answer is given they say ,that is the text book way,out here we do This.
Experience dictates over theroy if you want to stay alive.

Joe,
I agree a trainer with experience/s can and will pass on REALISTIC Knowledge and Application.(as in my last point above)
More through the way the scenarios are set up and the way the attackers attack and victims respond.
Again visualiztion is a useful tool,just not a stand alone tool in regards to physical training of any sort,be that Self Defense,sports application,driving or shooting as examples.

If we look at the military as an example.
They train in as close to realistic application as possible for the situation they will be encountering.
They do dry drills with mock ups,they do walk throughs of events such as house clearing,(those are forms of visualization),more so than siting in a chair imagining training.
Then the Dry runs,the visualization is removed and then actual weapons firing is employed ,be it with sims or live .Progression is made at each step towards the physical and the desired outcome.

I have met and posted with many who claim that by watching video and or video clips of training  and or blood and guts that they are creating neuro pathways from visual to subconscious,to even muscle memory,and or desensitizing themselves to the blood and guts which may be an outcome.

Sitting in a chair watching a screen and videos does not create Pathways and or desenstize anyone from anything .
If so ,again,people who sit and play video Games all day would be stone hard core killers and most are FAR FROM THAT,lol.
Grab a stone cold Gamer by the throat and see if the video response of pressing the button happens,lol.
What subconscious  training and or muscle memory is obtained from the Hours and hours of PLAYING,which is also Visualization with an active,yet non pertinent muscle (Hand and thumb) memory?

In physical activity Visualization helps/enhances the Physical activity,but one cannot have Visualization alone and expect a Great outcome in regard to the physical requirement.

My opinion

[Joe Hubbard]

All agreed.

Joe

[whitewolf]

agree also-as for watching vidios on a technique-this one especially-one has to go to the mat and try it-otherwise waste of time-ww

[Canuk]

There was a study done a few years ago, it wired up people to sensors and had them watch a football game (these people were chosen because they did not have any experience playing football) Thier brain activity was normal, they then wired up people who had played football and were into thesport in a large way. Certain "pathways" fired off like no ones business. The general thought process behind the study and that if you have some basic knowledge of the thing you are observng, then some part of the brain thinks its ACTUALLY doing the thing you are observing. The study went on about the training implications behind this study. ill do my darndest to find the link.

[Hock]

IIRC it comes from that mental rehersal experiment where students were divided into 3 groups, one shot baskets, one visualized shooting baskets, and the other did nothing.

Benjamin, before this gets buried too far...what is this deal now? IIRC?

Hock

[JimH]

similar findings in this report
http://neuronism.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/nothing-but-networks-of-neurons/