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[bcorey]

Hope this is the right place in the forum for this, but I need some advice.

About a year ago, I get a call/referral after a woman went to this website and found me on the list of instructors.  She tells me that she had been recently attacked by a neighbor that she had been feuding with.  They ran her down with their car as she was out jogging.  Fractured spine, herniated discs, pin in her right shoulder - she got banged up pretty good as you could imagine. 
She then tells me that she wants to train once she makes it through physical therapy.  I say 'great, give me a call when your ready, but in the meantime, I suggest you take a firearms safety and intro course, learn how to shoot, and then get your CCW'. 

About a year goes by, I never hear from her, didn't figure that I would.  Until a month ago. She calls me and tells me that she has gotten through PT, has started running again, and feels fit enough to begin training.  She emphasizes that she is not interested in martial arts, just self-defense. I say "no problem".  I begin laying out a lesson plan for teaching her (basically an abridged version of TM1, 2, & 3) 

And then the problem starts - I begin to teach her the finger strikes and eye gouges.  She grimaces and says she's not sure if she could stick her fingers in someone's eye.  I remind her that an attacker isn't going to worry about doing much worse to her.  She grits her teeth and gets through it, but in the back of my head I'm wondering if this may be a waste of her time.

Tonight, we introduce the stick, and the knife for the first time.  As I am teaching her basic strikes with the stick, including pokes and butt strikes, she has to stop training, wipe her eyes and gather herself....  WTF?  She then says she's not sure if she could poke someone. Poking on my BOB dummy makes it just a little too real for her... Strike them with the stick, yes.  Poke or STAB, no.  ,

She seems to genuinely want to take the lessons and learn, but there is some kind of mental block that is holding her back.  Excuse me if I sound crude, but is this lady damaged goods from being previously attacked?  Or is this a case of a person that just doesn't have the grit to get nasty in order to preserve their own life?

Any tips, ideas for bringing out that fire that one needs to get down and dirty?  or teaching strategies for making the knife/stick less intimidating?

[Hock]

You are facing a pretty particular but not unsual problem.

Being purposely hit by a car makes her a crime victim and in a sense in a category like a rape victim. This alone is a set of problems.

But I must run....more later and others will have ideas...

Hock

[Canuk]

I think she is still processing what happened to her, and may continue for sometime. Point out to her that her attackers have no problem causing long lasting injury or death to her and unless she wants to continue to be a victim then this is what it takes win.  Does she have kids? maybe next time they wont just come for her. Get the mama Bear involved 

[whitewolf]

Althought i am not a qualified medical doctor i have had 3 actual rape/assault victims come to me over the years for training-here are some thoughts.


contact your local assault or rape clynic and have your student visit them for counciling in private.

stop using the tactics for now that she does not like  or gets shook up about for now and work on just plain self defense tactics without a weapon.

When she is ready she may ask to learn using a expedient weapon-if not get her ready to defend without one. If you push with a weapon you will push her away..

Go into a little more with aerobics before you give a lesson with her-if you know use the aerobic exersises that simulate fighting (not ti bo)

i.e. repeated knee strikes-hammer blows to hocks clock -stomps to arch etc.

lastly be there for her on the mat-give her praise and patience-

I had one victim cry when we first started and 3 months later i had to wear a cup  use a mouth piece and she was going like hell at me-

hope that helps WW

[JimH]

To me,she sounds like more has happened to her in her life than just the feud with the neighbor and being hit by a car.

What I teach and what I tell others who teach women to do is develop constant awareness and avoidance  systems FIRST.
This way they can ,hopefully,avoid situations rather than go physical with a man,especially if having gone physical before showed them and made them understand most woman CANOT function well on this level as they are not as physical and that in fighting back against most men just angers the man to do more violence.

What good is teaching a woman who meets a man and then gets into his car,ends up in a field some where how to try and fight the man off ?
She should have never gotten into that situation, being there is going to be an uphill fight or a tragic ending,which could have and should have been avoided,learning self defense is not going to help much in that situation at that point.

I also like to take people who have been in situations and reenact the situation ,no matter if they won or lost,or were victor or victim.
Reenact the scenarios and show where errors were made and always end it with them being in the same situation and ending/walking away as the victor.

This is what I do,just concepts for thought.
The student/victim must be receptical to the training.

[whitewolf]

JimH-some good points but i do disagree with the part where you want to reenact the act-personally I would wait on that one -at least till we did some training in some of the things i posted above-
I had one lady come to me and when we discussed the actual event she stopped the class and said she was going back for counciling and never returned- looked as if the
reenactment was too much for her.
She was a teacher around 55 years-she had been exiting a school in Newark and a
well dressed young man came up the stairs-grabbed her pocket book and pushed her down the stairs- she broke her shoulder -got head injury and hospitalized-
this act really go to her.
So i guess i am saying -for me- i take it slow when i teach a victim.

WW (ELB) "speed of  light"

[Dawg]

bcorey,

I have also taught self defense to several women who had previously been a victim of some type of violence. If this is your first time dealing with this type of student, stand by for one of the most challenging, and yet rewarding, teaching experiences of your life!

One woman in particular comes to mind:

She was much like the woman you describe; she even had difficulty looking me in the eye while I was just casually talking to her before and after class. Like yourself, I was focusing on the Training Mission materials. She was very fearful of any kind of contact and was also reluctant to use the eye attacks on the BOB. To make a long story short, three months later she certified Level One in the Unarmed Combatives material and even attended one of the seminars when Hock came to Meridian. She continued to train with me for about 6 more months and continued to improve in every aspect of the material that we covered. She started looking me in the eye, standing up straight and attacking the BOB (and even myself! ) with aggression and confidence.

Fast forward a year:
Lo and behold, who is standing guard at the front gate as I drive into work? It's her! We both get a good laugh and do some catching up and she thanks me for helping her get her confidence and her life back. I also came to find out that she has become quite the little tigress whenever the security force does their training.

So, I agree with the majority of the advice given already:

1)  Take your time. Patience and praise will definitely be key elements for a successful outcome.

2)  If applicable, use the "Mama Bear" tactic already mentioned by Canuk; that's been a real winner for me.

3)  Be especially mindful of her (and your own!) body language as you speak and even approach her to demonstrate a technique. Learning to recognize when the "fear factor" is mounting will enable you to change tactics quickly and regroup without ending a session prematurely.

In my class I was able to demonstrate on one of my training partners and let the ladies train with a partner they felt comfortable with until their confidence level improved. You might not have that luxury if she's a personal client.

 "Excuse me if I sound crude, but is this lady damaged goods from being previously attacked?  Or is this a case of a person that just doesn't have the grit to get nasty in order to preserve their own life?"

You don't sound crude to me; you sound concerned. That's a great start! Regardless of how she came to be this way, you have the opportunity to give her the tools she could use to possibly overcome her circumstances. I wish you, and her, the best of luck!

Please keep us posted! (Good luck!)

[JimH]

Reenactments are up to the students.
If they are up for their situation being told,by them,as they explain the situation .

The people I have had were victims of assaults.
(Have not had a rape victim)

I doubt a woman would want to reeenact her rape in front of a majority of men.
Best done,(story and reenactment), with a womans self defense group,who bring the victim to a point of being a victor,some concept different environment.
Like FAST DEFENSE
or
RAD

The woman in the original post was assaulted ,so the reenactment,is fine ,if she is up to it.
(though,as said in my other post,she acts as if something more has happened to her)

The end result is that they,Victims, see and know they can be the victor.
That the bad ending of an OLD situation is not the ending that is freshest in their minds now.

[whitewolf]

JimH-quick comment on RAD--I went to the local RAD class in a part of TN a few years ago-when it got to the part where we started to learn how to teach to respond we had to practise the movements that the female would use to fend off the attacker-

I was thrown out of the class for being to reolistic and striking to hard..........

I hope that the RAD classes in other parts of the country are teaching reolistically-not a bunch of BS-

WW

[shastana]

I had the experience of teaching Kempo to a few females, some rape and assault victims, around 1992-4.  We had a women's class.  They worked together, cried and dealt with the pain together.  It became more of a healing therapy session, which hindered the training process in kempo a bit.  But they began to see the need to fight back as they gained strength from one another.  It was cool to watch.

I made an effort to support each one of them, and found by nature, removing the victim mentality was the first and foremost battle I had to win.  I can't do that with finger strikes, kicks, etc as the first approach.  Instead, there was dealing with violence as a whole.  So, we would start with a circle, put one woman in the middle and she had to guard her space as others tried to enter it.  Then we added verbal defense, yelling "NO" and "get back!", with a countering push or evasion and movement.  I used the circle for 10 minutes every session, it built up their understanding of their personal space.

Later, the circle was replaced with a couple of male students invited in to help.  At first there was the fear of the male.  They overcame that after a few times, to a degree.  Then we would work on countering grabs, one on one, against male students.  Then we worked on counter strikes to vitals, starting with the groin and throat.  Later the eyes, but we didn't have BOBs back then, it was a focus pad. 

Then I was able to start on the kempo progressions, and some of the scenario stuff.  But we had to push thru the fear and panic that violence brought to them.  Their group was successful, even one who her husband always beat on her, had a success story when she fought back and put her husband in the ER for some stitches!  Paybacks a bitch!

Anyways, hope this helps.

[gematriot]

Hi. My suggestion... read up on PTSD, it may help you understand "where she´s coming from".

Specifically check "Cognitive-behavioral therapy for PTSD" and proceed WITH CAUTION.

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm
http://www.nctsnet.org/nctsn_assets/pdfs/TF-CBT_Implementation_Manual.pdf

[Canuk]

bcorey,

I have also taught self defense to several women who had previously been a victim of some type of violence. If this is your first time dealing with this type of student, stand by for one of the most challenging, and yet rewarding, teaching experiences of your life!

One woman in particular comes to mind:

She was much like the woman you describe; she even had difficulty looking me in the eye while I was just casually talking to her before and after class. Like yourself, I was focusing on the Training Mission materials. She was very fearful of any kind of contact and was also reluctant to use the eye attacks on the BOB. To make a long story short, three months later she certified Level One in the Unarmed Combatives material and even attended one of the seminars when Hock came to Meridian. She continued to train with me for about 6 more months and continued to improve in every aspect of the material that we covered. She started looking me in the eye, standing up straight and attacking the BOB (and even myself! ) with aggression and confidence.

Fast forward a year:
Lo and behold, who is standing guard at the front gate as I drive into work? It's her! We both get a good laugh and do some catching up and she thanks me for helping her get her confidence and her life back. I also came to find out that she has become quite the little tigress whenever the security force does their training.

So, I agree with the majority of the advice given already:

1)  Take your time. Patience and praise will definitely be key elements for a successful outcome.

2)  If applicable, use the "Mama Bear" tactic already mentioned by Canuk; that's been a real winner for me.

3)  Be especially mindful of her (and your own!) body language as you speak and even approach her to demonstrate a technique. Learning to recognize when the "fear factor" is mounting will enable you to change tactics quickly and regroup without ending a session prematurely.

In my class I was able to demonstrate on one of my training partners and let the ladies train with a partner they felt comfortable with until their confidence level improved. You might not have that luxury if she's a personal client.

 "Excuse me if I sound crude, but is this lady damaged goods from being previously attacked?  Or is this a case of a person that just doesn't have the grit to get nasty in order to preserve their own life?"

You don't sound crude to me; you sound concerned. That's a great start! Regardless of how she came to be this way, you have the opportunity to give her the tools she could use to possibly overcome her circumstances. I wish you, and her, the best of luck!

Please keep us posted! (Good luck!)


Thumbs up to you Dawg! I love to here about when someone returns ot the land of the living! Good job

[shastana]

Good post Gematriot, that is the bottom line with victims, and the good advice they should adhere to.  My wife is starting a new career as a therapist.  Off the record, she herself was victim of abuse, violent attack and other terrible unspeakable things.  I will say that therapy has freed her of most of the problems she dealt with on a daily basis.  What is interesting is that I ran her thru a women's defense course last year and she was at the start, the most timid one there.  A strike was a push, a kick was a tap and the instructor and I sat back and waited to see what would happen.  Once we suited up the instructor for the actual assault training mid way thru the course, something clicked in her 110 lb body.  She literally tore up the instructor, didn't even hear the request to stop after the drill was done, continued to attack.  It was awesome and such a huge change, I will never look at her the same again.

I asked her how she liked the course and if she got something out of it...she basically told me that she didn't really know what happened except she kept thinking about how she should have fought back harder when she was a victim, how she had reconstructive face surgery to fix her, and she wasn't going to go thru that ever again. 

When we talk about victims she deals with, there is a common theme that she brings up.  The inability to face the past, the lack of desire to prevent it again, and the guilt they feel for allowing it to happen and its affect on the ones they love.  She uses CBT, psychosynthesis, existentialism, and art therapy to help others face the reality, put it in perspective, and make mental changes to overcome the victim mentality.

It really is a mixed bag when you are dealing with victims, and it is a great idea to have some understanding or empathy or better yet, experience in dealing with the emotional and psychological aspects, not that you need a degree, just some basic working knowledge on how to approach these people in a productive manner.

...and I will never look at my wife the same again, mama bear is in there, oh man!

[whitewolf]

shastana- glad for mama and you- some families fall apart due to the husband not accepting what occured to the wife- stay  safe  WW

[Dawg]

Thumbs up to you Dawg! I love to here about when someone returns ot the land of the living! Good job

Thanks for the "thumbs up"! I love hearing about it too; it's even better when I get to play a part in it.

Shastana,
Great story! We need to share these successes with each other as often as possible. Keep fighting the good fight!