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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • February 08, 2012, 05:47:35 AM
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Author Topic: Knife is a dirty word here  (Read 1729 times)

redcap

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Knife is a dirty word here
« on: February 20, 2010, 03:35:02 AM »

In the past week we had a 12 year stabbed and killed outside his private catholic school in Brisbane by a classmate. Plus a day or so later another 11 year old brandished a knife nearby and here in Sydney a 14 year old was disarmed by a teacher at Cherrybrook (an upscale middle class suburb). There were incidents last week and there will be more next no doubt.

Meanwhile more teens are complaining of bullying and violence, especially cyber violence on social networks and embarrassing footage on YouTube. And then Channel 7's tabloid 'current affairs' media beat up opinion former, 'Today, Tonight' did a story on a martial arts school in Melbourne that is 'teaching teens to fight with knives'. I didn't see it and am still looking for a report but I was reliably informed about the story and the subject school. It was, I was told, as one would expect, one sided but then I had warned these people years ago about their web site and their 'culture' of the knife. The school? Amok.

When all you teach is the knife, what have you got left when they take that away from you?
Comments on this, the rise in teen violence and 'rage' and so on?
Redcap
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 04:28:13 AM »

Tell me about it- I can't even wear Hock's knife shirts anymore publically without people coming up to me with aggressive comments that I am promoting a knife culture in the UK.  I don't even teach knife tactics anymore here.  Well, I do to a chosen few, but mostly it is all Counter Knife, Counter Stick and Counter Gun, with the majority being Counter Knife.  However, if I was teaching under the banner of Doce Parres or an esoteric Silat system, suddenly weapons training is acceptable here.  It's a funny old world.

Joe
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arnold

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 06:25:49 AM »

See my comments about being surrounded by idiots. W leads to my statements that all children need a good beating
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whitewolf

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 07:39:27 AM »

its funny because as i read down the posts i thought to my self the kids were probably not even punished when they were young by the parents- now they are 11 or so and little animals- i vote for spanking at a young age without they judiical system saying they are beating the kid-but----it will get worse in many places-WW
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TLE

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 08:00:23 AM »

I think this discussion brings up a good point. At what age do you start teaching students with from a "kill or be killed" perspective? Heck,  I have found even a  lot of adults back off when the training reaches this level. In my opinion, teaching knife tactics to a class or as a curriculum for kids is totaly out of line. To teach individuals teens,  like a son or daughter, where you have initmate knowledge  f them at the emotional and psychological level, I think is is ok.
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Hock

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 08:57:14 AM »

Amok is a “crazy” name. Always has been. Try explaining the real Indo/Filipino definition.
When I say this - as I have for years now - it does not endear me with the Amok people. But its the wrong name at the wrong place, wrong time. As Joe says you can "get away with murder" by using a odd Filipino name over it...unless it is Amok - which is self explanatory for many. Best have a weird, foreign name. It will disguise what you are doing for years and years! How many years now I have warned, seminar after seminar to pick a good name for a course (especially knife ones) and be careful what the name of the knife is that you carry. All these military combat knife names are not good. “Seal Team Throat Slitter Six...Seven will be out out soon... NO!

Actually the knife is scary, not popular, and really never has been. There is only a very small group that is interested enough to get off the couch and do it. But it can be a VERY interested group. But still small.

The term Counter "this or that" has been around and I liked it and like to use it a lot. I may well have been a major promoter recently these last ten years in popularizing the term worldwide. (remember, years  before there was Blade/Counter-Blade? There was my Knife/Counter-Knife)

But linguistically, I feel you have to have the word, first, then the counter word,

Punch/Counter-Punch. Gun/Counter-Gun. and yes...Knife/Counter-Knife...

...to sort of round things out. That's just me because unarmed courses only who teach fighting unarmed, can just easily say “counter-knife.” The dirty secret is that to fight against the knife, you have learn to fight with a knife (SOMEBODY has to play the realistic bad guy.) Calling it counter-this or counter-that is a good idea. And as you all know I couch it all in the name of

Hand, Stick, Knife, Gun.

It is a whole matrix for me. hand, stick, knife, gun versus stick, knife, hand, gun versus knife, hand, stick, gun, versus gun, hand, stick, knife. WHEW! But it is one big "counter-to-everything" program...using everything (or nothing) to counter with.

Which is somehow not presumed that I am teaching a special class for alley thugs on how to knife fight! Which I wouldn’t do. Its the local school and host’s job to screen their people.

We’ve never had this problem in the USA.  Or parts of Europe. Lots of knife courses in Germany, for example. But you have to be careful in the UK and Australia. Couple of watch words...

Keep it adults. (always note the media seizes upon children and teens learning this)
Keep the adults screened and announce you will screen them.
Keep it full of local laws of self defense and rules of engagement.
Keep it presented properly and professionally.
Keep a good name for the courses.
Keep yourself looking clean! Don’t “tap-out” and tattoo and thug yourself, your shirts or your school out. AND DON’T over militarize your school either. You will also look like a militant weirdo.

And...keep it alive somehow. That is “the movement.” Like survival skills movement. All through time fighting systems have had to be hidden from the sensitivities and paranoia of temporary, local governments. Then...the Japanese invade. The Nazis invade. The North Koreans go nuts. Suddenly genocide becomes a hobby in eastern Europe or Africa. Iran goes nuts. Or the local gang goes nuts. Or a hurricane destroys a region and in three days all the food is looted from stores. And then all that hideous taboo, survival training suddenly becomes quite important. If you look at the BIG picture of world history, all things like governments and religions slip and slide and come and go. Most of us reading this now all live in a superficial, passing, cupcake world in the big picture of history. And knives cut cupcakes. Knives also protect cupcakes.

But the typical, local news airhead will never understand that or care to report it as such. And it really is "teens learn" and "children learn" knife fighting...

So...tiptoe on.

Hock

« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 09:59:05 AM by Hock »
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grlaun

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 09:03:27 AM »

Jeez! You've been saying that since, damn 1998?!? In the last few years you've been emphasizing that more & more... The smart one's listen.
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TLE

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 10:42:05 AM »

Great advice Hock.
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whitewolf

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 02:40:23 PM »

Advise -great- but i am not covering up my USMC tatoo for anyone- ;D
WW
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arnold

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 06:52:50 PM »

And we thought you had that tattoed on the back of your skinny old jarhead butt! :o
Stay safe
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redcap

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 07:17:23 PM »




...to sort of round things out. That's just me because unarmed courses only who teach fighting unarmed, can just easily say “counter-knife.” The dirty secret is that to fight against the knife, you have learn to fight with a knife (SOMEBODY has to play the realistic bad guy.) Calling it counter-this or counter-that is a good idea. And as you all know I couch it all in the name of

Hand, Stick, Knife, Gun.


Hock



I agree with the majority of the post, especially the bit about the naming. I told Tom Sotis and his Aussie agents that the Amok! name and especially the text on the web site would bite them on the butt one day. As in their "Brotherhood of Knifers" - 'joined as one in the brotherhood of the knifer' and so on. Their Aussie chief instructor agreed with me and said they were changing the tone of the web site soon, which I believe they did.

My point is that you don't need to train someone to use a knife. Just give them the rubber knife or whatever and tell them to kill the other person. Pretty soon they learn to guard the weapon and lead with the free hand, grab the defender and pump the knife like crazy. You really only need to teach them anything if you are into knife duelling, which is a very different thing in my experience.

You can train them in that by giving them Ouch Blades. These are blunt but still real knives that really hurt when they hit you, especially snap cuts to the wrist and hand. That teaches duellists to keep their distance and only have a go when they are pretty sure they will get away with it.

How many people with no knife training (counter knife or knife/counter knife) are attacked by knife wielding assailants every year? How many of these people die? How many of the attackers have had any formal (or even informal) training in knife fighting? Of these encounters, how many are knife/knife?

I don't have the answers but I do know from my own experience and research that most knife victims were unarmed and untrained, but then most of the population is also. I think a lot of people like the idea of training to knife fight, love the sparring but when it comes down to actually doing it, I'd rather a stick against his knife than a knife or empty hands anyday.
Redcap
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whitewolf

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 08:00:19 PM »

Red- i agree-as for me i never have been in a knie fight so i dont know what i  would do-i train to defend but untill (i hope never) it hapens for real then ill just hope that
the training will work. I have had the displeasure of almost having my face ripped open from a 9mm barrel- i reacted well-hope it will be the same against the blade.... WW
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redcap

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2010, 02:04:39 AM »

My knife/knife story happened one night on Mabini Street in Ermita, Manila. I was walking to a hotel with a bag of balisongs in one hand and an open one along the wrist of my other hand. It was 1am and I was in a bad part of town. A Bakla or Bini Boy (transexual) approached me on a corner and asked where I was going, did I want a date etc. I was polite but he was insistent so I told him to do it himself. He pulled out a knife and said "I cut your testicles off". I remember thinking, 'How odd, nobody says testicles nowadays'. I flashed the balisong and said "I'll cut your balls off mate!" and meant it. He backed off muttering, I backed off in the opposite direction. It could have gone pear shaped but fortunately for me it didn't. The deciding factor I believe was that I had the knife in my hand, ready to go. I had a bag full that I had bought that day for my students back in Sydney. If I hadn't then I would have been unarmed and in need of a different strategy.

Whitewolf, we think we will rise to the occasion but in reality we fall back to the level of our training. I think you'll be fine.
Redcap
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JimH

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 10:54:46 AM »

Most people have NO CLUE about using a knife as seen on TV or in Movies,the FMA way we will call it.
Most know how to use a knife to cut food,as an eating utensil.
They slash as they deliver a haymaker.
They Stab as they punch.
Most do not wave it around unless they are trying to intimitade.
Users use it as a slash and a stab.

I used to carry a fixed blade in my boot.
I was in a multiple on one,me,and it happened too fast to get the blade out,as I was exiting a rear door of a Bus in the Bronx.
Had I gotten it out I would have used it,and most likely would be in jail.
During the fight I had grabbed one of them from behind and rather than just strike and dump him,I had him in a rear choke around a light pole,I thought to myself I had stayed too long in one position ,if one had a knife I could be stabbed.
I stepped and turned to my right and at the same time was stabbed at from behind,cutting through my jacket just under my arm/arm pit,with a slight cut to my left tricep.
Had I not moved right I would have taken the stab to the upper leftback around the shoulder blade.(Not a good place to take a hit)
I dumped the guy I had and turned and chased the knife guy,he turned and ran,I ran him down from behind and drove him into the cement  and kicked him in the head.

An NYPD Police car with two officers in it slowed down,watched for a minute and drove away.
This was at around 4 pm ,in a busy business district and no helped,many yelled for them to get me.
One old Black Woman yelled to them "Leave the Boy Alone"
When in an altercation,even if with so called friends ,fight as if you are alone,as the only one on your side is YOU.

From then on I DO NOT carry anything.
I rely on my self,my wits,my training,my life's training.

I train in unarmed against armed
I train in armed against armed,so if I take a weapon from an attacker.
(I then didn't bring it to the conflict they did)
I have trained in FMA and train with members who train in Sayoc.

I train in unarmed against a sword,stick,bottle knife,improvised weapon and that training gives me confidence to not care about the weapon.

The knife is an extension of the hand,screw the weapon,take the limb,take the attacker out.

Your training will kick in,just flip the switch to Violence of action and do what needs to be done to go home.
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redcap

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Re: Knife is a dirty word here
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 06:32:39 PM »

Totally agree with you JimH. Especially about not carrying and not having a chance to get it out when you did and the in jail if you had bit. That is reality.

I can also see the cops driving away. I once faced four very nasty belligerents outside a pub on a sidewalk. I was backing up my partner who had tried to remove one of them. We had a third partner on the other side of him. I was on the left flank and next to the biggest bloke I have ever seen (at the time he was a giant, ok?) and these blokes were hard men, not young teen yobs. I tried to think of a reasonable excuse to not be there, such as go for help etc but I knew I couldn't leave my partner even though I really wanted to. The partner on the right flank was useless and everybody knew that, so it would effectively be 2:4 against.

At one point a cop car pulled up feet away from us, looked, they laughed and they drove on. They would have to have been blind not to realize the situation, but they chose to leave it be. I knew when it started it would be literally do or die and I was focussed on taking out the throat of the big bloke as he went for my partner (they were all focussed on him). One of the other yobs spat in a girls face and the tension rose. The police car cruised past again doing a blocky, but didn't stop. Then it all just fizzled out. I can't recall how or why but the tension just disappeared, everyone was laughing and the yobs finished their beers and walked away.

I had a baton on my belt (it was a uniformed security type job, more crowd control on the sidewalk than bouncing) but knew if I went for it I would trigger the violence. I also knew I'd have to make some time and space to get the thing out and working.  What was the worst thing about this situation was not the police ignoring our need for assistance but the face down took so long and the realization I was very scared and got to the point where I just wanted the fight to start so we could get it over with. I realized later that I was more scared of being a coward and running away than staying and fighting against the odds. Anyone relate to that?
Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour
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