Hock's Blog

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page



Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

New Links

Knife Book

Impact Weapons Book

First Contact

Critical Contact

Footwork Book

Facebook-CQC

Facebook-Hock

Hock's Author Pg

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • February 08, 2012, 05:33:53 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?  (Read 2559 times)

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7753
    • www.HocksCQC.com
How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« on: February 22, 2010, 07:26:07 PM »

From another thead...

"My point is that you don't need to train someone to use a knife. Just give them the rubber knife or whatever and tell them to kill the other person. Pretty soon they learn to guard the weapon and lead with the free hand, grab the defender and pump the knife like crazy. You really only need to teach them anything if you are into knife duelling, which is a very different thing in my experience."

* 2 points of first contact of the knife attacker (trained or untrained attacker)...
        1) His knife first then his body attacks
        2) His hand/arm first (grab or strike) then knife attacks


* 3 Common attacks by the untrained.
       - Reverse grip? Downward stabs from his 10, 11, 12, 1 o’clock
       - Saber stab?   Right hand? Usually comes in from his 3, 4, 5, 6 o’clock
                            Left hand? usually comes in from his 9, 8, 7, 6 o’ clock
       - Slasher? Side to side.  Hardly if ever up and down


This is what comes in from the common person (99.5% of the population?) Knife Countering doctrine must include this info. So an attacker should start by delivering these common attacks via these two contact points. (Hey, hey, hey...thats a WHOLE simple seminar right there)

But alas, sounds like a knife program! DARN! If the trainer isn’t trained even in this simple format above? They are missing very key ingredients. And the curse of “having a course or program” suddenly begins.

And that’s “Counter-Knife Kindergarten." AND with this simple information you have already supersceded gazillions of self defense courses and certainly their approach and organization of countering knife attacks. The problem is there needs to be somebody competent and trustworthy organizing the information. Someone like a central clearing house, or a ...a...program head of....DARN! That word “course” or “program” comes up again!

“BUT HOCK! WAIT! You can’t say all knife attacks will come in this way! You have to be...prepared for....”

Yes of course. But then the ugly word “course” or “program” comes in again. There's more...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 10:38:09 PM by Hock »
Logged

redcap

  • "I've done dead, didn't like it" 22 June 2009
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
    • Streetwise Philippines
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 01:53:02 AM »

I'll concede the point to you there, Hock, well put. My point, or the thrust of my argument so to speak, is the incessant drilling some engage in and the fantasy BS about using a knife. Lots of partner drills to train flow etc. I think it takes a particularly cool, callous and extraordinary individual to slice up another human being as comprehensively as they train so 'casually' to do so. Not a problem if you are going to war but hardly appropriate for most suburbs. If it is that bad get a gun or a ticket out of there.

I don't have your years of police experience but I have seen enough real knife use to appreciate how dirty, bloody and shocking it is. I have never stabbed anyone but myself but I have cut the throats of animals. If the situation warranted I am sure I could do it to a human enemy.  I wonder how they would react if they had to actually do it? Many who talk knife seem not to realise there is a world of difference between talking about it and doing it, or screwing up and having it done to you.

So sure, train the angles and options you may face and that would require some instruction for the attacker to attack effectively for the training of the defender. But at least realize that it is not method that kills, it is mindset.

As I remind people, what is the point of carrying a knife for self defense if the odds are he won't feel anything less than a shot that puts him out of action then and there. Note this report of a man walking home with a blade snapped off in his neck...

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/6840382/man-found-with-knife-blade-in-neck/


BTW, that Sayoc Kali rig is an interesting subject for some Psych PhD's theses. As the narrator said years ago in 'Surviving Edged Weapons' (Calibre Press) "people who like edged weapons, like lots of them!" I used to, then I lived in a culture that used them for real either as tools or weapons everyday and I changed my mind.
Redcap
Logged
“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7753
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 08:08:31 AM »

"...is the incessant drilling some engage in and the fantasy BS about using a knife. Lots of partner drills to train flow etc."

People who over drill? Usually lose their way in all this. Shallow. A mantra I beat for many a year now. Its shallow. HOWEVER, on the flip side....the incessant over drilling can create a reactionary response in folks so that when they are stuck in the contact moment, they may well zip through six slashes and a stab before they even know it. Like a boxer mindlessly throwing a combination of five punches. That reaction might save their life? Who knows.

Teachers of physicality have always talked about how repetition training can overcome all kinds of psychological concerns and hesitations. The problem lies that these
"dancers," these "over-drillers" have a zero idea about the human side of what they are doing, the situation, the hideous before, during and after what the drill actually represents, or of having to use a knife (or any violence for that matter.)

Hock
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 02:35:00 PM by Hock »
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7753
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 09:49:57 AM »

“BUT HOCK! WAIT! You can’t say all knife attacks will come in this way! You have to be...prepared for....”

And herein lies the trap!
The foot is in the trap just by saying "we'll do a basic knife course on Saturday," even if its a counter-knife."

Once the shingle is up? Those questions begin. To be competent, then we have to find some answers. And the real trap begins to shut and the ...program is born. Then more questions. More answers...

Thawk! You are trapped.
And this is my trap.

Hock

redcap

  • "I've done dead, didn't like it" 22 June 2009
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
    • Streetwise Philippines
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 09:14:36 PM »

That trap you speak of... I guess it is like trying to be a little bit pregnant. Either you are teaching a program or you aren't. Fair enough. My beef with the drillers is not the amount of drilling but the amount of drills. More isn't necessarily better, perhaps?
Redap
Logged
“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7753
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 11:39:11 PM »

"I guess it is like trying to be a little bit pregnant. Either you are teaching a program or you aren't."

That is very well put.
But of course, part of the deal is all the issues you brought up too.
HOW is the course presented and so forth. All VERY important.

Hock

redcap

  • "I've done dead, didn't like it" 22 June 2009
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
    • Streetwise Philippines
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 05:07:12 AM »

I'm editing a lot of material for a colleague in order to produce a book and a DVD set for him. Lots of stuff to go through, all about 5 years old and all great stuff. Until I got to the knife on knife counters. Slashing triceps and stabbing throats is fine for teaching soldiers (which is what he did for 23 years) but I think in today's climate we are going to have to rethink that section. Or should we?

If you are going to defend against a knife attacker and you have a knife then surely the objective is to finish the fight asap? He was trying to kill you afterall. If defending yourself  requires opening his windpipe to criticism, so be it. That is the practical me speaking. Now I wonder what the PC me has to say? Any comments SFCers?
Redcap
Logged
“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

Canuk

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 766
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 07:10:45 AM »

lawsuit, lawsuit, lawsuit, something that you can never get away from. I would suggest you dedicate a chapter or two to the legal implications of using force with and without weapons for your area.
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 5307
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 08:57:06 AM »

Good points- what is germain to this discussion is the fact that many "knife Instructors"
never have been in any real conflict with a expedient wpn,pistol, club, knife-it is book learning (or bull shit) -i say away from teaching deep knife /counter knife training as i feel that i need much more practise- i do instruct as i was taught the basic block and react by holding on to the wpn and strike the opponent. I would rather advise a student to take a knife retention course by a qualified person.
Although some here say countless repeated retention drill to take a wpn away is not needed i have practised quite a bit on retention of a wpn(mostly pistol) and the time i need it it worked.
I have been reviewing Hocks knife manual a lot lately and trying to get it embedded in the old bowling ball (hard to do- ;D) but ill keep on trying....
i have asked a few MMA guys about knife tactics and they dont have a clue.
In my neck of the woods their are few if any that teach wpn retention-lots of
TKD, Judo, MMA, Kung fu (i just love that name- ;D)
But the reality teachers are not jumping up and teaching- great for me and my school though--- stay  safe  WW
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7753
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 03:50:34 PM »

How to "couch" all this?

One example.
This is the forward of my new knife book...


<<<<.>>>>

     "Knife fighting is not an art. Or a hobby. Or an interest. It isn’t fun. Nor is a bullet to the brain or a broken leg with an exposed, splintered bone though the flesh. If you think it is, then I think you need your head examined or a real dose of reality experience.

    This is a book about the very essence of knife/counter-knife combatives. It’s sources run the gamut from forensic science, crime, war, military, law enforcement and martial arts. It has been my lifelong pursuit to bridge the gap between these sources, as each group knows things about fighting the other doesn't. I am but a mere, dedicated vessel for all these points of reference. I myself have no great fondness for knives, sticks or guns. Instead, I am obsessed with tactics first and foremost. The truth in combatives lies behind martial systems into the generic, non-denominational strategy and tactics.

    This book is meant primarily as a military resource book, with a heavy militant flavor and feel. You will read terms like "soldier" and "enemy" to designate the trainer and trainee positions and those terms will define the winner and loser. You will find numerous, true military knife combat stories and various military themes. This militancy to me is the core truth from which the soldier, law enforcement and the aware citizenry can find edged-weapon, ideas, methods and training ideology.

    Under the scope and spectrum of this military filter, the most, effective and brutal methods can be explored without distracting concerns for humanity or political correctness. Life, death and tactics. It just is what it is. And from this violent base is the true vile nature of knife combat. Brutal. Ugly. Vicious. Disgusting. Wet.  

   It is my personal wish for you that you may never have to lift a knife for self-defense or defend any righteous cause: that you live a prosperous life without serious confrontation or violence: that you read this book only to prepare for a worst-case scenario. I demand that you use this information for the common good of oneself and human democracy.

   So, it is with some regret, some hesitation and trepidation that I present to you this very dark book. I do this because I know the nature of time and humanity. I know this is information that needs to be collected somehow and passed on by someone, somewhere so good people may survive the ebb and flow of evolution, and for the dark days that surely come and then surely pass again. Again and again.  
 
  We gather in practice reluctantly. We pursue with an uncertain sadness, with purpose. As a surgeon uses a sharp scalpel to cut flesh and preserve life, I ask you to do the same with this knowledge. Use your knife to save your life, your family and friends, your proper government. The enlightened will understand what I mean."



http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product391.html

Hock
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 03:53:00 PM by Hock »
Logged

redfive

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 172
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 04:24:32 PM »

When I was much younger I asked my instructor how hard I should hit someone if  I had too. He said, " If you have the right to hit someone, you have the right to hit them as hard as you can." He later in training said that," only pull a gun, if you are willing to shoot and shoot only to kill. When it came time for the knife it was the same thing, only pull it if you are willing to kill with it and cut, stab to kill. If you do pull the knife you have the right to kill. If you think you dont have the right, then don't hit, dont shoot , dont pull the knife. Like Hock says, its a moral, ethical and legal issue. The legal one I would wait later to find out on. Take care of buisness first.
It does take a special individual to use the knife and a different mind set. I love the knife. And would not hesatate to use it. I have friends that are just the opposite. They would die before cutting or shooting anyone????

                                                Redfive
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 5307
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2010, 06:05:24 PM »

Today at my second self defense class i was asked-"what would you do if you approached your car and preditor was under it and reached out and cut yur ankle and started to grab you?
I thought a minute and my answer was>
How many here are dependents of soldiers now in Afgaanistan?
about 6 raised their hands-

My answer was then- you become a wounded warrior and fight him like hell.
I did not try to show any self defense move-the ladies agreed at my answer.

we then contiunued the training-with lots of talk intermingled concerning turning the switch on and go home alive.....

ww-i am IMHO a instructor who gets the student to do something -not just stand there
plus i teach tactics but i am convienced that a action against the evil is better than
attempting to react after being hurt.....ww
Logged

TLE

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 181
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2010, 07:32:54 PM »

 There came a point in training with weapons when I "knew" I could and would use them if neccessary. This didn't happen quickly in my case. I am sure the learning curve varies tremendously among individuals but it took a real deep dive for me. IMO, if you are going to teach edged weapons, you have to approach it with reality or don't teach it at all. As far as legal consequences go, thats part of the reality of carrying and training with weapons. On a side note- I have the Hocks first knife manual- how does it compare to the new one? 
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7753
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2010, 08:10:23 PM »

"On a side note- I have the Hocks first knife manual- how does it compare to the new one?"

Good God man! Like night and day!
Your instructions....

1) Take the 16 year-old knife book in one hand.
2) Soak in flamable liquid
3) Safely open cigarette lighter
4) Ignite and destroy
5) Insure ashes dissipate properly

Hock

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 5307
Re: How Deep Need a Knife Course need Go?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2010, 11:02:56 PM »

Hock -good one that cracks me up- in fact i have stomach ache from laughing-
guess he was serious-but--------oh well

you know i am using the new book-lots of practise on a bag with a rubber knife-also on the ground using a 40 lb dummy on top-going to start with the students on some of the tactics when i feel a little more comfortable-

i am one mean old whitewolf with the collapsable baton though-

WW
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3