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[Mesmeriser]

Sup guys,

As i talked about in my other topic i recently started doing doce paris style fma
i was looking at some videos of fma on youtube even though i usually dont allow myself to do it when i start a new art, it tends to overload my brain and i like discovering on art through doing it instead of watching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgTjGMzpZ7Q&feature=related

anyway there is stickfighting sparring in this movie.
Is this what the end result is supposed to look like when i get good?
Because to be honest this looks absolutely ridiculous to me. they circle eachother real close range slapping on the wrist and kind of slapping with the stick from their wrists.

can somebody help me understand this, because it looks to me at anytime you can just step out the fma dogma these guys are installed with and just overpower rush forward and pummel the guy to death put him in a hold, a good lower kick  whatever.
ive seen guys circle eachother but atleast they were at further range, pretending the sticks were machettes and doing various strikes  using their whole  arms trying to get in x strikes  and others at least those are relatively strong hits , and i had some  trouble buying into that(because it was asword style applied to sticks)


but these guys wow they  take it to a whole new level theyr in a very close range is stickfighting even relevant at that range  if you dont use it to aplly some kind of lock ? id just hit with the handle. whats your take on this?
 trying to learn here and expand my knowledge

Mes

[Mesmeriser]

posted it in the wrong forum.
sorry

[Hock]

I can hardly watch this as it loads so slowky and shows but a few seconds and loads slowly again.

Looks like they are doing maybe one close drill? Surely they have many more?

Hock

[redfive]

The purpose of the drills,sparring or some call it Tapi Tapi, is to build your speed and coordination. To practice  your blocking and trapping skills so that it becomes second nature. It also makes your left and right hands independent, multitasking  if you will.
 You do not wont to get caught up or trapped withing the drills. They are set patterns that must later be broken out of. This leads to free stick sparring. And you will see that in real drill unrelated sparring that within 2 to 4 moves its over. Remy once told me that in a real knife or  stick fight, that the first couple of moves determane the out come of the fight. There is no long tick for tack, counter to counter in a real fight. That's why I try to focus on The basic strikes and blocks. I don't waste to much time on the close in stick trapping and locking and the bastardisation that has become the art of Tapi Tapi. As I said before. Keep it simple. Take your stick and bash the other guy in the head.
   Hock has a good saying that always sticks with me. "Will the technique work on a football field or is it more suited for a tennis match."  The sick drills are the tennis match. You then have to take them and use only what you need from them to work on the football field that is combat.

                                              Redfive

Ps: for people who argue this with you. Let them keep there stick, but you use a baseball bat.

[whitewolf]

Red i agree- use the basics to stop the opponent- WW

[Mesmeriser]

 thanks for the  clarification

i tought this was actual sparring, they said so in the movie. i didnt know sparring was another word for drill.
they were saying in the clip they were sparring at about half strenth to avoid real damage and that their art was a close in fight art etc etc so i figured i got it right.
to be honest  the whole fighting with sticks and fighting close in didnt make alot of sense to me.


i totally agree with the keep to the basics, keep it simple and effective.
thats why im getting more n more displeased with the fma im doing, their focus is just so out of wack
first i tought it was artsy fair enough, their motto seems to be more complicated is better and theres lots of dancing ok. but as i train more and talk to the guys i discover theres not a single session where you train against attacks you can actually expect from a person trying to harm you with a stick. and theres no application training outside of flow drills and tapping sticks in predescribed routines. theres no block and counter drills against dedicated attacks,  theres really nothing dedicated in the training its either flowdrills or set order tapping. no sparring either.
how can that even build a good dueller? i still think its fun but this is my main art right now and all it does is teaching me badhabits and unlearning my more practical  previoius training. 
 
   im thinking about saving up money  for some seminars now and get a dvd setand start a training group or something w/ some likeminded guys .  cuz my school has  about 0% self defence value.
man if only that hock school was closer

[whitewolf]

Mes-purchase his knife book and practise the movements-alone and then with a partner
also get some of cds that apply to your training-almost like having him with you-ww

[Mesmeriser]

yeah im thinking about the knifebook and a dvd set about basic emptyhand knife and stick defence/attack.

but i never really believed in learning from books or dvds, i always tought the hands on experience and where somebody can show and correct you is very important.also the asking questions part so you properly understand it is important.
i think i would at least need to take a seminar before i can practice it with the aid of a book

whats your take?
cheers

[redcap]

It looked to me a lot like the Balintawak style of Bobby Taboada. All that close in TapiTapi stuff. It works well when the other person does the same thing but not so good when the other guy doesn't fight like that. Notice nobody ever thrusts? Note also when one loses his stick the other is soon disarmed too. At such close range it is inevitable a man with both hands free not trying to go counter for counter will affect a quick disarm. The head is too close and all it takes is a pat check to his stick and you can rip into his head. How you train is how you fight and they train not to do this as they would hurt each other.

I can't say I have ever seen anyone fight like this for real. I have seen fights using sticks when I was in the Philippines and had a couple myself (at my school) that were half serious. I confess I can't say that Heyrosa De Cuerdas style was used but then I never let my opponents get that close and neither did the fighters I witnessed. As soon as the range closed the fights deteriorated into grapples and maulings. Most of the stick work was more like caveman club style, lots of aggro brought on by drinking Tuba or Tanduay or sniffing Rugby (glue). Plenty of noise and movement but little skill or technique.

That wrist slapping can become a dangerous affectation. I have seen bicep slapping and similar habits to make one look cool I guess, but they tend to do it for real and telegraph their moves. I noticed the Grand Master twirled a few times with an open hand, something I was taught was the worst thing one could do, it inculcated the bad habit of not holding the stick properly and risked an easy disarm. But then I'm not a Grand Master.

One job I had there was as Travel Editor for EZ-Maps. I had to drive all over the country with Charlie the American owner of the company and ensure the maps were updated and write blurbs about the locations. I have to say finding an Arnis or Escrima school was incredibly difficult. I never found a Kali school or anyone who had a clue what Kali meant. As we drove I look for signs and most evenings spent in far flung bars I would ask for the local teacher and there were very, very few of them. And I spoke enough of the language to get understood.
Redcap

[Mesmeriser]

yeah thats exactly what i tought, they said it was actual sparring. and i was thinking that only works if the other guy is in that same martial arts box, because when your that close well like you said, it doesnt work very well.
and yeah i totally noticed there were no thrusts or pummel strikes just these weird pure from the wrist strikes without arm power

besides whats the point of using a stick if your gonna go near grapple range?

ive always wondered how much of the stick tech remains when shit actually would hit the fan,i theorise the long range stuff would keep the most.
i reckon like always if your lucky the basics will remain..

cool that youve seen actual fights(or semi fights) did you ever see one where technique  remained im really interested in hearing. i wondered esp about the double stick witch seems more complicated then just one. but very curious in general

Shame about the teachers being so few.ive had in the back of my mind a hope of going to the philipines some day and train long hours there, probably is a pipedream as i dont even speak the language, but hey who knows.
Its weird though wasnt this their heritage combative art? i always tought guros were all over the place in the philipines

interesting stuff..

[redcap]

I lived there for 4 years and had travelled there for the previous 20, usually once a year or more often to train, dive and be an ambassador for my country (official lie but 'barfining' is frowned upon in some forums). I trained the local Barangay Tanod or volunteer community police, these local guys were the ones most likely to attend as first responder at the cockpits, KTV bars and so on where fights would happen. I rode along with them many times in Bogo and Talisay and Calape, all places on Cebu, plus had some interaction to a lesser degree in Manila and Angeles City.

Most of the fights were fist fights and they were like any pub brawl anywhere. Wild swinging and leaning back when punching to avoid getting hit and then tearing shirts and grappling and falling to the ground. Unless one got the drop on the other and as he went down from the king hit (sucker punch) he was hammered into the dirt. Pretty one sided stuff.

Knives, bolos, machetes etc were next. Never saw a balisong/butterfly/fan knife although you can buy them in the sports department of the local Gaisano Dept Store along with brass knuckles and arnis sticks. Mostly they used either bolos used on the farm or around the garden or kitchen knives.

Quite a few used guns, mostly 'Paltik Pusil' the local Saturday Night Special. While the guns vary in quality the ammo is usually rubbish. I had a colleague I taught English with, an American who had lived there since he was a boy and spoke the language fluently, shot twice in the back at point blank range. His friend popped one round out with finger and thumb and the doctor took the other out with tweezers. Low powered reloads are common and many have bad casings and jam, which is why I bought a .22magnum revolver off my aunty-in-law the gun maker (I kid you not!). I felt it was more reliable and I could put all 8 rounds in the same hole from a foot away if need be.

The Tanod carried sticks but rarely used them. I taught them to close and grapple with the stick and use them for controlling offenders. See Hock's new DVD from Paladin (I think) for a look at that stuff. There is some footage of Remy Presas using a stick for take downs and locks on one of the threads and it also shows how useful the stick is at grappling range.

You can go to the Philippines and train but it would be prudent to identify who was going to milk you of your money first, before flying out. If you are in the UK, look up  http://www.rapidarnis.com/ Pat O'Malley from the Rapid Arnis school. If he can't help you he can point you towards someone who can. He also travels there regularly and takes groups with him. You only need to go to the Philippines to train for the 'street cred' and the adventure. You will get much better quality instruction at home (same in USA, Canada or Aust in my opinion).
Redcap

[Benjamin Liu]

Shame about the teachers being so few.ive had in the back of my mind a hope of going to the philipines some day and train long hours there, probably is a pipedream as i dont even speak the language, but hey who knows.
Its weird though wasnt this their heritage combative art? i always tought guros were all over the place in the philipines

FMA isn't that uncommon in the Philippines.  Arnis is taught in schools and colleges.  The term "Arnis" is more common that "Eskrima" IIRC.  An Eskrima instructor in the US asked my cousin if he heard of Eskrima and he said, "No" and the instructor said that meant that FMA is rare even in the Philippines, but my cousin just did not hear the word, and he trained in Arnis.  It is not realy surprisng that few in the Philippines know what Kali is, there was a big debate on an FMA forum a few years ago between Filipinos (living in the RP) and Americans (Filipino-Americans are still American) regarding the term.  I won't go into that debate though.


If you can speak English you can get around in the Philippines.  Tagalog is a lot more common now that it was when my dad was in school, back then only about half the people spoke it. 

For a long-term stay it would be good to know Tagalog, not to communicate since you can do that in English, but to be able to tell if people are saying something behind your back.   Some areas will have different languages, but they'd still speak English.

[redcap]

I've just returned from the Philippines with a case of cellulitis of the left leg that had me in Chong Hua Hospital in Cebu for the last four days. I'm now in a local hospital here in Sydney. I could draw analogies between the differences in being treated in the No1 private hospital in Cebu and a regular, free, government run public hospital in Sydney and they would apply to training in FMA in the Philippines and in a 'good' school in the west.

In Cebu you pay before they will admit you, you pay for toilet paper, a second sheet or pillow and any and every item used is listed separaterly. Without your 'Watcher' looking after you and taking care of you, you would suffer. There is so much relying on the fact you are supposed to be impressed and awed by the fact you are in CHHH. You are lucky they let you in!

In the Sydney hospital it is not about the chief doctor, hospital owner or whoever, it is about the patient and their treatment. The food is served hot and you can choose from a limited menu. In CHH it was always stone cold, take it or leave it and unless you like a whole small fish and rice for breakfast... and every meal afterwards, no variety.

Training in the Philippines is not that wide spread. The Calape National High School offers a stick swinging class to some years that is alegedly Arnis but it is teach by rote, all lined up and pretty woeful. The structure of classes and curriculum is very different to that in the west and relies heavily on the student doing the same basic stuff for years while being teased with some advanced moves that look flash and keep the interest there.

I have found Filipinos who do Arnis don't understand you when you say Arnis unless you mimic their accent. Tagalog is the main component of the national language Pilipino but in the Visayas and Mindanao once out of the towns few will understand you in English or Tagalog/Pilipino. But somebody will, esdpecially 50 plus Filipinos. Your father's generation were taught in English but after 1986 they went to local dialects, Pilipino anbd English so the end result is nobody is really that good in any of them (joke). Otherwise ask the kids but the adults 25-50, nope.
Redcap