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[redcap]

When I was paid to carry a firearm for a living we were instructed in the use of the 9mm Browning Hi-Power, our standard sidearm at the time and still is I think but don't quote me, I'd have to ask a mate still in the job. One instructor was an American who had served in the US Army, then the Rhodesian Army and then joined ours (Australia). He had a thing about boot polish and brasso methinks. Anyway he was superb and I have always believed when it comes to handguns the Americans would have to be the world's leading proponents going back to Wild Bill Hickock et al.

So I have a question of our gun fighters: What is it with this gun on the side gangsta thing you see in the movies and the crime clip videos of 7/11s being held up etc. Forgive my ignorance and being somewhat behind the times as I haven't fired a handgun for over five years but I would think that sideways position would be rubbish in a real gun battle.

Surely the recoil would affect second and third round placement, risk wrist damage and even the sighting of the weapon using a both eyes open instinctive style would be skew whiff somewhat? I concede capping someone's ass or whatever the target is at point blank range makes most grips moot but at a distance of 7-10 feet or more I figure the first round would most likely miss most of the time.

Enlighten me, please.
Redcap

[Canuk]

It looks cool, thats it

[VicMackey]

"Da gangsta" way of holding a sidearm makes anyone look like an amateur. It may look cool in the movies to some ignorant audiences but it is percieved as unprofessional to professional gunmen. Personally never done it, and never cared about it. Whoever came up with it is a very stupid idea and has cost a lot of innocent lives in the process during a drive-by or walk by shooting.

[VicMackey]

However, I'll admit that I do cant my gun slightly to avoid the slide of my semiautomatic pistol from hitting the wall, which is recommended if I have to turn to a wall corner to the right. Again, I do not go too close to the corner to avoid a disarm.

[redcap]

We practised a lot of shooting from the hip, tucked in tight with the whole body and both eyes turning inline with the gun. The weak hand was up and outstretched as required, good for feeling in the dark, fending off and creating some space, as well as being high enough up from the gun's line of fire to avoid taking a finger off. We never did the stiff armed thing you see on tv, I mean that would have to get tiring, surely? Not to mention what you pointed out, the ease of being disarmed poking in doorways and around corners.

We were also taught to not hug walls, something a Brit exchange NCO taught us derived on experience gleaned in N.I. Something about bullets having a habit of following along walls or something. It was a quarter of a century ago so forgive me if I'm getting this arse about.

When it came to searching inside buildings, hallways and such we had to get prone to look around corners, and do it a foot or two off the wall, not hugging it tightly. If paired, one would stay prone while the other moved down the hall to the next turn or doorway. He then went prone and #1 moved up. The thinking being less chance of shooting his mate in the back if he were firing up or along the floor, at worst he takes his mate's ankle out. Shit happens as they say.

Room entry was similar with #1 prone looking in from the hinge side to offer the widest view, #2 booting in at the lock then stepping back out of line of the door. Most shots would come out at hip height or above and to the middle of the doorway. Made sense to us at the time. We also liked to mousehole a side wall but that isn't always practical even in a MOUT situation.
Comments?
Redcap

[whitewolf]

Althogh I have not carried a pistol in a few years here are some thoughts
 first I think the hlding of a wpn  in the Gangsta way is more of a macho way to
show that the shooter is in charge so to speak-in other words he is a street guy.

NRA has a great tv show where they show quik draw and how to hold a wpn-great shows full of good solid advice on the proper way to fire against a opponent in a hurry-

I have seen a few vidios where the shooter turns the wpn on the side to pull the slide back and put a round in the chamber-then tunrs the wrist back to fire- any comments on the value of that?

WW

[JimH]

The gangsta position came about due to the fact that the victim was usually hit with the pistol first to gain attention and cooperation
Then
The raising of the pistol to the HEAD with  an elbow up and out,pistol grip to the side,which  took the arm out of center line and prevented the victim from thinking about trying to move or grab the weapon from the shooter.

[whitewolf]

JimH-where did you hear that-? I think as i stated it is just a "street" show of force myself-WW

[JimH]

WW,
All weapons not used directly for injury or death of the victim,but which are shown to the Victim are for intimidation.

I know ,supposed Gangstas,people who grew up in places like Harlem,Bed Stuy, Newark,Phili and other supposed bad areas and many train in Martial arts to use it as a way to stay alive or get out and they tell of how and why things are done.

When an attacker/gangsta has a pistol for instance they run up on the Victim and strike them one  OR MORE times in the head to get their attention,instill immediate dominance ,instill fear and gain compliance.They do not stand at distance in a proper shooting stance as they are not interested in shooting the victim they are interested in using overwhelming force and fear to get what they want.They want to gain attention,put the pistol to the victims head and they get in close,face to face to snarl,spit and make the demand,so the pistol is up and pressed to the side of the victims head,elbow up,hand turned ,pistol grip turned.

The Intimidation method became a way of firing on the street but that was not the intent of the gangsta position of the weapon.Firing like that is not for accuracy but to lay down rounds and who ever gets hit gets hit.This is why in many gang shootings more bystanders get hit  than the members of the other gangs.

If we think back this method of firing has been around since Firearms have been around.
Rifles were fired in WWI-WWII-Korea-Vietnam and even today in Iraq and Afghanistan in this manner as the shooter is behind cover,knows roughly where the enemy is ,they raise their weapons over the cover,(which is rifle turned side ways),or the weapon is turned around a corner ,held side ways and they fire to put rounds down range at the enemy.

Side ways firing is not for accuracy just to throw rounds towards the enemy.
Side ways hold at very close range is for intimidation,elbow up and weapon high to make trying a disarm or grab of the weapon and or weapon bearing limb harder.

[Canuk]

Really? you are saying that gang bangers orginally had a tactical approach to what is now a common thing? The mob have been around for awhile, they also use weapons for intimadation and I have never seen or heard of them pulling "gansta" style, up here anyways

[whitewolf]

Sorry JimH i am with Canuck on this- i was brought up in Newark area-when a pistol was used never heard of threars by tipping the weapond sidways-oh well lets carry on WW

[VicMackey]

Guys, don't get fooled. Not every gang member uses the gangsta stance. Some have had prior proper gun training or former military training. Some know how to cut the pie or do a dynamic entry. And those are the ones we gotta be more aware of.

[Canuk]

agreed, we have seen an increase in MS 13 gang activity (not the wannabes either) these guys have training, talent, motivation and short fuses. Up here we listerned and listerned hard when the FBI told us to watch these guys. We hit them hard on a regular bases.

[VicMackey]

You have MS-13 in Canada too? Wow. If so, they are not just confined to the US and South and Central America anymore. Some of their older members have had prior experience in the 80s Salvadoran conflict, whether in the military, leftist guerrilla units. or paramilitary right-wing death squads, such as Sombra Negra (Black Lightning). And they will not hesitate to put a gun to your head and then blow your brains out. They have seen so much death and it is no longer a big deal to them. They even kill or beat you down just for kicks or fun in order to instill a fearsome reputation.  They are like a plague. I hope you guys have CCW someday to keep these minions in check. An armed population is the best deterrent against them. Again, it's just my opinion.

[Canuk]

They are trying hard to further establish themselves in the big cities, we are keeping a very, very close eye on them based on the US experience. We are very proactive in terms of intell gathering and raids.