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[redcap]

I tend to agree with JimH's explanation for the gangsta grip. I don't think it was a conscious tactical development as much as an evolutionary process. The intimidation, pistol whipping, in your face theses makes sense to me. Anyone who interpreted JimH's post as suggesting they developed a system etc I think misread his post.

I was chatting with a mate today (who would know) and he said the Russian bodyguards include the use of a sideways grip for their return fire with the .22's many carry. Their thinking is that shooting rarely occurs further away than 5m (15ft) and the .22 can lay down a lot of fire without a lot of recoil and second round misses, not to mention being much easier to carry and conceal the smaller gun.

I know you Amurricuns lurve your large calibre pistols but I can see their point. As part of a team returning fire the .22 can be accurate and effective. Five rounds in the heart will do it for most, or five in the throat and face if they suspect body armour is worn. Other team members will have AK variants or Czech Skorpion machine pistols so the close in team can carry .22s and be comfortable while they protect the principle.

MS13 are hard core for sure and fortunately we don't have them here. Yet.
Redcap

[Hock]

A handgun, slightly...somewhat...turned inward from a perfect vertical position is favored by many pros because the human hand turns slightly inward when raised. In the same way we see MA people talk about the vertical fist versus the 45 degree angle fist. This SLIGHT turn favors anatomy and movement. Slight. Not horizontal or "flat."

The complete turned gangsta thing? Is very Hollywood and life imitates art, imitates life...etc. It seeps into police work and into thugs.

A few experts a few years back determined that a sideways or horizontal grip interferes with marksmanship, especially at increasing and greater distances. Even the slightly canted grip does not do as well in distances than a vertical pistol.

Whether slightly turned-in or vertical, either grip will kill you fast.

When searching in hot situations, when my body was low, say like running up to a car with a suspect behind it. I have found myself holding the gun up high and you must turn your hand somewhat.

Also a shooter has to worry about suppling the handgun with enough stability to allow the slide to kick out a shell and cycle a new round into the chamber. If the gun is held too funky and too high, this may cause a cycle problem.  

Hock

[JimH]

My point,as Redcap explained,was that the grip was first a way to intimidate at close range ,while protecting the weapon bearing limb.

Youngsters in these areas seeing the  method of holding the weapon during robberies took it one step further to shooting in that position.

The method was born from armed robberies,to movies,not the movies to the streets.

"Journalists and gun experts point to the 1993 Hughes brothers film Menace II Society, which depicts the side grip in its opening scene, as the movie that popularized the style. Although the directors claim to have witnessed a side grip robbery in Detroit in 1987."

"The Hughes brothers didn't invent the grip, though. In 1961's One-Eyed Jacks, Marlon Brando used it, as did Eli Wallach in 1966's The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly."


If the side ways hold was used in the movies of the 1960's,how do we equate that it has to be the Movies of the 1990's to poularize it ?

If we look at the trick shooters of the 1890's we see unorthodox shooting grips and methods, with accuracy.
Again sideways turning of the weapon when shooting rifles and pistols is not new and not due to the movies.

I explained to WW how I came to my reasoning for my points ,based on seeing and speaking to those who live in neighborhoods with LOADS of Wanna Bee Gangstas and or people who were /are living what they call the Gangsta life.

Mine is just A reasoned OPINION.

[redcap]

I can see Hock's point about the natural fall of the hand and wrist being slightly turned inwards. Once you go past that angle the elbow starts to rise or the pecs tighten up but until then, it is a very natural position.

Reading that made me remember back 25 years to a range day when we were shown 'the Israeli Draw' as the instructor called it. As you draw the 9mm Browning (a single action pistol) you punch the gun through the left hand to rack the slide back and chamber a round. Without breaking the momentum you continue punching through and bring the gun up to a locked arm position and lo! The gun was usually at a slight turned in angle, at least for the first round.

Various weak hand positions were tried, including bracing the gun arm at the bicep, the forearm in front of the elbow crease and the wrist, as well as in front of the fist. This was dictated mostly by the punch to rack and how the weak hand came up, sometimes you shot faster without waiting for the weak hand to come up into a supporting position.

One drill was to draw, punch and rack then shoot as soon as the slide hit home and then drop the mag with a thumb to the mag release, catch it in the weak hand and fire off the round in the chamber. Then you replaced the mag and holstered the weapon ready to draw again. Fine for draw practise but some of us wondered if under stress you would do that if you trained it often enough.

The catalyst for this was a report about a US cop killed in a gun fight while policing up his brass... as he had been taught to do on the range. Not sure if that was a true story but it got across the message: how you train is how you fight. Comments?
Redcap

[VicMackey]

The officers getting killed as a result of policing brass is an unfortunate but true story. Like they say, you fight like you train. I never stick to what the Navy has shown me when it comes to firearms qualifications for armed watches or for law enforcement. Some of the stuff they use are very questionable at best. That is why I always seek training that is outside the box and always keep an open mind. And what you deem useful is up to you and you discard the garbage.  As a matter of fact, I don't even go to the indoor ranges anymore where you can only shoot standing. and if the range don't allow shooting CQC at live fire, practice it at home using either airsoft replica gun same as your pistol or dryfire your carry pistol using snapcaps and laser. Don't limit yourself. Limitation can kill you.

[redcap]

Airsoft, snapcaps? You guys are spoilt. We have mattock handles and a will to not become Talofa'aa's bikini model in Cell 5. So we tend to figure out ways to avoid the people with guns who shouldn't have them. They are breaking the law! We just sort out the ones with the mates and kitchen knives.

Do you have mattocks in the USA? It is like a pick on one end and a hoe type digger on the other. The handle is an awesome bit of confidence booster when you have to stand your ground.
Redcap

PS Useless against a gun of course, unless he is looking the other way when you sneak up.

[whitewolf]

Red-make sure you get pick and the hoe end sharpened-and take their hand off
ww

[redcap]

Jeez Whitewolf, I'm not that bloody big! I can swing the mattock handle but not with the metal bit on the end. I keep that for the veggie patch. Besides, that might get someone hurt! Can't have that, poor disadvantaged types!
Redcap

[whitewolf]

OK Red- did not know that it was so big-oh well- stay safe  WW