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[Yuriy]

What do you friends think about Jim Wagner Reality Based Martial Arts?

Budo/Black Belt magazine has published a lot of his articles last couple of years.

[Hock]

Yuriy,
It seems, he is not what he claims to be!
Just read here: *in fact you need to start right here first, then come back -

http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4049.0.html

Hock

[Joe Hubbard]

An interesting development in regard to JW's Scout Sniper Certification, shown on wagner's page and on the POW Network page:

I showed a USMC friend of mine, I worked with daily, a copy of JW's Scout Sniper Certificate and this guy just cracked up laughing.  For starters he said just look at the dates- Jan 3rd through Jan 5, 1993.  

            There is no way anyone would receive a sniper's certification in two days.  

Some general intel on the 10-week Marine Sniper course:   http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/marines/a/marinesniper.htm

Then, the marine supervisor told me, if the certificate was bona fied, it would have the signature of the training officer and the officer in command of the school.  Finally, and this is coming from two serving Marines; no one except a Marine gets a Scout Sniper Certificate!  They said it would be possible for Law Enforcement to maybe receive a Sniper's Certificate, but not a Scout Sniper's Certificate.  Then read the letter that JW is using as confirmation of this training dated a year after the certificate was allegedly given to him.  The letter just says that he was just helping the Marines out, that's it!  Further to that, if you go on his website  and click on the PDF link Page 2 Firearms, the caption reads, "Jim Wagner received his Scout Sniper Training from Costa Mesa SWAT, U.S. Marines, German GSG9 and the U.S. Marshalls.  

Wow, that's a tall order and bordering on fraudulent.  I mean was he in GSG9?  Obviously not.  I know he says he has trained them, but so has Hock (members attending group training) but there isn't that sort of time when you are travelling doing seminars to take 3-4 months out to do a sniper course.  Then click on PDF Page 1 Firearms and read that he was a firearms instructor for the U.S. Marines at Camp Pendleton.  My friends from Uncle Sam's Misguided Children laughed and said that will be the day when, and I quote -

"some chubby out-of-shape, police reserve from Costa Messa
will come and show the Marines how it's done."

He joins the Army in 1980 and does 8 months.  8 weeks of basic training, 3-4 weeks of extended radio operator school, 2 weeks to get stationed to a post.  That's roughly 3 1/2 months.  He says in was in a combat unit, but where did he serve?  He was discharged after 8 months, so in fact, once he was stationed somewhere, he only served for 4 1/2 months.  My Marine buddies say there would only be two main reasons for this- mental or physical disability or failure to adapt, or a weird recruitment deal. So he is out in 1981 and gets into art design and marketing until 1989.  

Note: his resume says he joined corrections officer duty in 1988, but his corrections certificate says 1989.  From there it appears that he was never much in the police? DARE program? Shopping mall cop? But from a full-time Costa Mesa cop droppe to a Costa mesa police reserve?

Also note throughout his  (older) resume he says he has extensive years of experience in Special Operations.  He has had to change all that now. But, I guess he was an operator of sorts, but just a radio operator who lasted 4 1/2 months and went whining to his Congressman.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This in from a 1990s, Costa Mesa SWAT commander. After Wagner flunked their SWAT team PT test, a supervisor let Wagner help out around the team. He WAS NEVER on the SWAT team. This supervisor said:

"At any rate, Wagner started attending our sniper practice.  I really didn't care since he had his own rifle and ammo.  Later, Officer Dan Erber (also owner of HSS) worked with a couple of Marine snipers to prepare a 2 or 3 day sniper school, which was held at Camp Pendleton.  The certificate you see is the one Wagner received after attending this training.  I have one just like it. Wagner was a very good artist and could draw pretty much anything..."

Other team members say that Wagner designed the certificate and it is his caligraphy/lettering on it.   

Out

Joe

[Joe Hubbard]

Read the Wagner 13 Questions...
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4049.0.html



Product Description
Taught by Sgt. Jim Wagner, creator of the Reality Based Personal Protection system. A police officer

with over 13 years experience in SWAT, Corrections, Special Forces  [/u]
(no SWAT either by the way)

, and the Military, Wagner has taught hundreds of police courses world-wide, including Brazil, Argentina, Israel, FBI and CIA. This video will teach you, step by step, everything you ever wanted to know about combat with a knife, and other ...." (all as an employee through HSS)

Out

Joe
 

(complete product description: Product Description -
Taught by Sgt. Jim Wagner, creator of the Reality Based Personal Protection system. A police officer with over 13 years experience in SWAT, Corrections, Special Forces, and the Military, Wagner has taught hundreds of police courses world-wide, including Brazil, Argentina, Israel, FBI and CIA. This video will teach you, step by step, everything you ever wanted to know about combat with a knife, and other edged weapons. The only way you're going to know how to defend against these grizzly weapons is to become and expert yourself, and that's what you will learn in this DVD. You will learn the 12 angles of attack and how to counter them, speed and reaction drills, prison yard methods, and more important, transition to your sidearm during a suprise knife attack. You'll lean how to not get SHANKED. Approx. 93 mins. )

[chfroehlich]

On Sergeant Jim's HP:

On 26 January 2006, by order of Governor Arnold Swartzenegger, Jim Wagner was appointed in the California State Military Reserve (CA SMR), State Order 6-026-R-03 to the rank of Specialist (SPC/E4) assigned to the 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized) Support Brigade with the duty assignment of Physical Security NCO with the Provost Marshal Office (Military Police) where he serves to this day. Then in March Jim Wagner was awarded the rank of sergeant (SGT/E5) after successful completion of Basic Orientation Course at Camp Parks, California.

[Joe Hubbard]

I wonder though, if he was called up to go to Afghanistan, would he go?  Would he serve for his country and put his life on the line?  I wonder.  Interestingly, he ran an ad in a French magazine with a photo of him, alone, with a scarf, by a Humvee where the caption read, "Here is Jim Wagner training U.S. Army troops on their way to Afghanistan."  he is just standing there alone. No troops? With a...scarf around his neck. In America.

What's even more interesting is that ad has never ran stateside.

Out

Joe

(Wagner joined the only reserve unit that CANNOT go to war. Odd for such counter-terrorism expert and tactical genius) - editor
Raed the 13 Questions
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4049.0.html

[JimH]

I wonder when the Gov Arnold Schwarzenegger paper will make it to a PDF on JWs bio?
The ranking will of course be blurred out,for security reasons.

MA community?
It is about 15-20 years since Joe Lewis,Master of Karate not boxer,attempted to head and require  a board of examiners to certify Instructors and schools.

Luckily it never took hold,as said,who was to decide what and or who was legit and what groups would get hold and keep others out.
(had there been a board,would Bruce Lee have been allowed to open a school?)

It is a shame that people can BS their way to the top with minimal training and experience but people do this everyday in the World of Business,Education other skills required jobs.

This is why sites like Hocks that allow people to discuss the Good and Bad of Instructors and Arts is good,it is sort of a self policing and is readable by the public IF they ever BOTHERED to run a search.

Again JW teaches BASIC applications which are usable,it is his EXAGERATED Self Promotion which  upsets most.
As the Exagerations are disinformation which he uses to sell what he teaches to the public through Ads and Mags.

You think you are getting a legit Instructor who has Truely Been there and done that.

If you had a Man/woman who claimed to have worked at Harvard,you might think wow,what credentials,if you paid money to learn something from them and then found out what they meant by worked at was they were a Janitor not a teacher would you be upset?
Some might say well the information given was basically correct
but
The way it was sold should be questioned.

If you helped an Old Person or Blind Person cross the road,would you claim you saved them from being struck by a car
or
If you gave a bum a quarter whould you say you rescued/saved  a Family from poverty?

Exagerations,similar to the stuff JW comes up with, should upset the legit.

Every thing he does,is Done to move himsef to another area of self promotion period.

Just like Joining the California State Military Reserve.
Why was it done?
To me ,it was done because the advancement of the law against phonies milking the public with claims of STOLEN VALOR.
Once people began to crack down on these people his appearances in BDU's and in combat or Police Gear stopped.
As soon as he Joined the CSMR he was back on the front page of Black Belt in a Legit uniform,which so Happens to be the same uniform as the Military just with differnet patches,which required a Magnifying glass to see what they were,then one would have had to look up the patches and realize they were not US Military Official.
Now he CANNOT be charged with Impersonation of a Police Officer or a member of the Military.

He now has documentation as an NCO,as a Provost Marshall/MP and is recognized by the Gov as a PHYSICAL SECURTITY Specialist.
This is good for alot of press/articles.

Look at how he worked the radio room of a central base that Gov Schwarzenegger visited during a recent rash of Fires,it became a story of his and the Govs lives being intertwined.
LOL
PLEASE

[Hock]

Wagner will never have to serve in Afghanistan or Iraq. the California militia does not go. So where abouts is a Jim Wagner:Californian Militia-Man in the food chain of command? In the big picture, he is a safe at home, and in a way, many readers of Black Belt worldwide may not know of these various military service chains. Here is some general, military knowledge:

Full Time (and obviously may go war)
  Active Duty Military Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard

Part Time (and may go to war)
  The National Military reserves
      Reserves Army           http://www.armyreserve.army.mil/ARWEB
      Reserves Navy           http://www.navyreserve.com/
      Reserves Air Force      http://www.afrc.af.mil/
      Reserves Marines        http://www.marforres.usmc.mil/
      Reserves Coast Guard  http://www.uscg.mil/
      The National Guard      http://www.ngb.army.mil/About/default.aspx

Part Time (and may NOT go to war)

       The State-by State “Defense Forces.” Every state has its own small, part
       time support military group, sometimes more than one per state.
       State militias are not sent to fight overseas wars, but handle state emergencies.
       Here is a list of the over 50 http://www.constitution.org/mil/link2mil.htm

       One of these nine militia groups in California is the California State Military Reserves.
       (will not to go war)
       The CSMR is a  volunteer, operational force. Its members are subject to call
       to state active  duty by the Governor of the State of California.
       http://www.calguard.ca.gov/casmr/Pages/default.aspx
       Read about them here. They have done an amazing amount of firefighting.

Wagner then quickly got into a jam with his leaders when he rushed into Black Belt magazine to be photographed in his "dramatic combat uniform." He always screws up.

Hock

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This came in on another thread and I moved it here to condense the Wagner threads and organize subjects- Hock


Hello,
My name is Elad F., I hope you do not mind me posting what I am about to post and specifically in this military category. I am a current serving member of one of the Israeli government security divisions and a former member of the Israeli special forces.

We have a problem in the Israeli martial arts community now as well with instructors making false claims about their backgrounds and systems, the most publicly well known Israeli instructor making false claims about himself, his background, and his system at the moment is Moni Aizik. But, I wanted to make a comment about another point of Mr. Jim Wagner's advertising that is an issue to us.

He claims that he instructed the Israeli Special Forces units and the Israeli police.

Both of those claims are also false. Through Avi Nardia he had a seminar arranged to teach at civilian section of Wingate. Wagner claimed that the seminar was for special forces members, but it was open to the public, and even teenagers attended. There could have been former or current IDF special unit members there, but it was not an official seminar for the army.

Also, I know that he advertises that he trained the Israeli police. He was granted an invitation for a tour of BASACAM, the Israeli police operational training center, and he was there for a tour. But he never taught there.

I would be interested in hearing him comment on this as well.

Thank you.

Elad.

[JimH]

Let's see:
The letter from Gov schwarzenegger says that JW is to be asigned as a provost marshall,security specialist for a Transport unit of the CSMR.

A guard for trucks used in a state emergency,at a job that asks for one,8 hour, day a month time commitment,learning your job?
Learning to be a Guard for a Transport unit.

Can anyone say coffee and donut day.

JW says that during the fires in CA he was manning the radio at the Central Headquarters when Arnold Schwarzenneger came by,he must have meant he was watching the Radio/Commo Trucks,lol.

Again,watch how many articles and qualifications come from this unit membership.

[arsenalgunna]

I just got done reading Wagner's response.  Took damn near 20 minutes.  Hock wasn't kidding about the self-aggrandisement.  For a guy that supposedly used to work for a greeting card company, I would think he could keep it short and sweet.

[JimH]

Mr Wagner,
I have defended your art on this and other forums as the materials being usable and doable,though very basic.

I believe that you exaggerate your life for the sale of your course.

You quoted me as saying the following about you:
"3 months riding on a plane makes someone an anti terrorist  
specialist, lol."

Well Sir,I know people who were the First Sky Marshalls and Sky Marshalls since inception through to Air Marshalls.

Before 9/11 the sky/air Marshall program was on the tail end ,almost extinct.
They were ANTI HIJACKERS and still are.

It seems Anti Terror specialists has become the Big Name to throw out like Special Operations,(which you know about since you titled your new books and tapes on it)

Are the screeners who get near minimum wage at the airports Anti Terror specialists?
Yes they are.

I like the your story of being a SGT in the CSMR, the one day a month program,as being part of Homeland Security and the reason you are entitleds to wear and claim some military identity.


In 2003 ,your first class in NYC you said you had been an NCO in the US Army in an Infantry Unit and had seen how your previous martial arts training had NOT prepared you

for the Fights you had to Brake Up Between YOUR Men.
(so you claimed Military rank not awarded you prior to CSMR)

You also claimed to be a JKD Instructor under Dan Inosanto and Training partner to Paul Vunak.
How true is that.

You claim you left the US Army because of a foul up in your attempt to get into the Warrant Officer Flight Training Program. It was wait 6 months to go to the program or your recruiter told you you could do Basic and AIT then go to the program,right?

Why did you not go in the army as a reservist and do Basic and AITDid you sign a CONTRACT with the Government for X number of years? If so did that contract say you would be released to the WOFTP after AIT? An Enlisted person can go to the WOFTP No?
You were in 8 months and 12 days and said it took months to get it resolved?

The WOFTP is what (weeks, two months,then 6 weeks warrant officer school,then flight school.
Since you joined to get basic and AIT out of the way (AIT was not needed) and you had 6 months till the course went off,6 months plus 9 weeks is the Exact time you got out of the US Army,and you COULD HAVE gone to WOFTP anytime from then to 3 years you say.
Well why didn't you go to the WOFTP?

Something is Bogus in your story sir.

You exaggerate your life story and you profit from peoples misconceptions about your background.
If people knew you did 8 months in the Military,most of it trying to get out,would your military count.

If they knew you were a Reserve Police Officer and Reserve Homeland Security ,would they come to your classes. If they knew you did 3 months sitting in a seat as you say.would they come to your class.

As Said If you helped an old Lady acrodss the road it would be you saved her live in a traffic  incident.

You do not even see that your stories are exaggerated.

Your response in Blitz is a Book on your life,with you telling people well this is true because I did this and it counts for that. It counts for what it is not comitted to start and finish anything.
To use that which can benefit you most,period.

I am sure the joining of the CSMR was done when you came up with the idea of your Special Operations Books and Tapes,to Legally wear the uniform or truely be a phony of Stolen Valor.
(looks good in the books and Mags,wearing the uniform,sells alot)

I would also lie to know your qualifications with Mortars, M60s,and Heliborne operations that your background and experience helped the  MI Det of the 19th SF. Do you have qualifications above the Pilots,crew chief and the SF Jumpmasters and riggers?

It is all smoke and mirrors,something you must have learned sitting on a bunk looking out the window in the military watching the others break their butts. Hope that PRC 77 wasn't too heavy,lol.

How many Military  units CONTRACTED YOU for PAY to come and teach them?
How many did you send letters to for letters of appreciation in return.

Lets get real.

You may not be a Liar but you are quilty of misleading with exaggerated claims.

[JimH]

Quote from Jim wagners RBSD site:
Jim Wagner, the founder

"If you had a desire to learn how to sky dive or SCUBA dive for the first time, would you want to learn from someone who has never jumped from an airplane before or someone who only got their underwater experience from a swimming pool? Of course not, and yet most civilian self-defense instructors have never been in an actual life-and-death conflict, and are merely passing down information given to them from their instructors. Even if they have been in the proverbial “bar fight” in their past the question must be asked, “Have they been shot at, attacked with a knife, or looked into the eyes of a criminal or terrorist?”


Mr Wagner the above is from your site,correct?

You portray yourself in the Above as one of the few Instructors who has  been in real Life and Death conflicts.
You ask the potential student/Instructor/ Buyer if their Instructor has ever been shot at,attacked with a knife or looked into the eyes of a terrorist?

I ask Have YOU?
The Terrorist you say you think you spotted turned out not to be a terrorist at all,correct/
So how many terrorists have you looked into the eyes of?

How many times have you been shot at?
In 2003,In NYC,you said you HAD NEVER BEEN SHOT AT.

How many times have you been attacked by a knife weilding attacker?
Twice you said,one a man rolled over while on a bed and half lunged at you and the other was a surprise abdominal stab but you had a vest on,if I remember right.

I am an assistant Instructor and when I attended your course I ahd already been shot at Multiple times,I had been in a handful or just over knife attacks and I had looked into the eyes of several Terrorists arrested and found guilty in the first world trade center bombing.
When I looked into the terrorists eyes they looked like regular people to me.
The knife attacks were people trying to kill me on the street and not a person sleeping on a couch who rolled over with a blade when shaken.
The shots fired at me were also meant to kill me.

Is being shot at,in a few knife fights and looking into terrorists eyes the mark needed to be reached to be a REAL Martial Arts Instructor,like you?


You say would someone want to learn to jump from a plane from a person who has never jumped.
I ask would you want to learn to jump from a person with a few jumps or some one who has dedicated alife time to jumping.

In the world of experiences you my friend are the one with a few jumps and others a life time dedicated to jumping.

Your life of experiences fit more with an actor learning a role for an acting job.
I guess this fits the articles you used to write about trying a martial art for 3 months the move on to another as three months shows you the basics.

In 2003 you said you flew as an Air Marshall for 3 months WITHOUT INCIDENT,now you have terrorist captures under your belt.

The more time that goes by the more you did,must be one of those secrets clauses that you can only talk about a little at a time as the years pass.

I wonder why someone who put so much time around the Military over these years could not hack a few year enlistment?
I guess it was like saying you wanted to be a Warrant Officer,go right to the top with little bottom time exposure.
Now you travel around,act like the top dog,they believe your stories and maybe they will let you play with their toys.
Yep Better than humping that heavy ole PRC 77, better than testing your mental/physical make up at Ranger or Special Forces School.
Yep quitting because you really wanted to be a Helo pilot,but didn't realize you signed a contract to serve as an enlisted man,that is the mental and physical make up of a Warrior.

PS:
Your concept for Reality Based Schools is that they should have lights on Dimmers,Beds,Living rooms,cars,bars.
Well I have trained in those places in the late 60's to the 80's under men like Frank Ryan and Johnny Kuhl,so what is your NEW Contribution to the world of Real Combat arts?
The claim to the name RBSD?
I don't think so

[JimH]

Mr Wagner,
On your site you say that you coined the phrase REALITY Based Officially in 2003.

In Black Belt Magazine Sept 1993, pg 88, there is an ad By a Mr McDougal and Mr Farrow
(Both Black Belt Mag contributors)

The Ad is For:
REALITY Personal Defense Techniques

The ad Reads:
Bring Life to Today's SCENARIO'S from Today's Headlines with
REALITY Personal Defense Techniques.

I have said Over and Over "REALITY" was Around In its term and concepts LONG Before You used it.

[arsenalgunna]

I am also curious as to why a majority of his "certified instructors" in the US are either inactive or expired in regards to their teaching status.

[JimH]

LOL,
I was going to post on the Instructors last night then didn't.
In the US there are 72 Instructors listed with 23 still active,a large portion of those active are probably new instructors.

In the beginning there was NO renewal fee.
I do not know if there ever became one.

For the cost of instructorship you got the training and signed certificates for each phase.

As I was in one of the first classes we were told we would get a binder with full descriptions and diagrams of the work we covered in the classes as it would reduce the time needed to take notes.(No Binder for the course sylubus was ever sent)

We were told we would get video tapes of each segment of the training to keep the material fresh and reviewable, Never got any tapes except ones I purchased from him that he sells to the public and I Didn't even get an Instructor discount as they were for my use,lol.

When level 2 certification came around I did not attend as I felt I did not get what was promised in level one  and level two seemed to be Bogus.
A friend attended level two and said he wished he had not as it was a waste.