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[Joe Hubbard]

Please check the thread at Self Protection Dot Com:

http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/self-protection-practical-martial-arts-f1/officer-jim-wagner-exposed-on-pownet-t6252.htm


This matter on the Blade Forums.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=563602

 
Out

Joe

[JimH]

Credibility that should be the prime mover.
The problem is people will not run a search to find out anything before they drop their hard earned money.
I was an Early buyer of JWs stories and I forked out BIG BUCKS for a week of training.
There was no site telling me about the BS stories,there was nothing.

As I have said the materials were Usable and BASIC,materials found in most Karate/Martial arts schools without the tradition and time.

Had I know that the materials were not the product of research and used by Police and Military units and that the person selling them claiming to have been all these things ,done,tested and trained  did nothing but visited these dreams,then I would not have forked out my money.

I was not in need of a degree in Martial arts as in 2003 I had a 3rd degree in Hapkido and a 2nd degree in TaeKwondo and was still active,as now,in Hapkido, and other martial materials that cost A LOT Less.

If people are willing to pay for a phony(look up the meaning as JW fits it) to teach them made up junk from bits and pieces of varied arts through life then why not pay legit instructors who charge 1/2 to 1/3 the amount the phony charges.

They go with what they believe to be,as Hocks says,a Jack Bauer,who has ,they believe has been there done that.

People im general do not seem to care very much,because if they read reviews of certain instructors and the material they would not spend the money and these guys would be gone.

Does anyone believe that JW standing in a MET Police uniform worked with them on the street and Taught them ANYTHING other than his self defense.

Does anyone believe JW standing with guys with hoods on claiming to be GSG9 taught these guys anything but his self defense?
What could JW teach GSG9 members about shooting,sniping and entry or any other skill?
He was there to demo his material.

Do the US Marines, Delta members,SEALs or anyone else in the field need JW to teach them sniping and field craft or how to rig a Helo or employ weapons they use in combat?
If they do then they better get out of the killing business.

It is all smoke and Mirrors,a Con game of deception through mumbo jumbo and paper work to validate nothing but teaching basic self defense moves.

I am glad this forum is here and we are able to talk about the phonies and are able to be searched and found by those who at least do minimal research before they crap away their money.

[JimH]

More Questions for Mr Wagner

Mr Wagner a question on your service as an Air Marshal:
quote from your site:
"At this time in American history there were only three official federal civilian counterterrorist teams in the United States: the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, the U.S. Marshal Service SOG (Special Operations Group), and the U.S. Federal Air Marshal Service."

You claim to have been contracted by the Federal Government as a Counter Terrorism specialist,correct?
In relation to your above quote,do you claim to have been on the US Federal Air Marshal counter terror team,with similar training and responsibilities as the FBI HRT and the US Marshal Service SOG Teams?

In looking at all the requirements for the Air Marshal program:
They list the training at the New Mexico facility as being Mostly Police related training as Air Marshals are the on board POLICE of the skies.
The training at the Atlantic City Facility has to do with actions like shooting and controlling HIJACK Suspects.

NO WHERE does any of the training information claim to MAKE Air Marshals COUNTER Terrorism Specialists.

I would ask what teachings you obtained to Qualify you as a counter Terrorism Specialist but I am sure you will tell me that the Training is classified.

You tell stories of tracking a Middle Eastern Suspect  and of an incident at an airport in which a fellow agent claimed to be followed and YOU Called the Orange county police and a Female Officer responded and let the suspect go in 30 seconds.

After the suspect trailing your partner was spotted and suspicion raised why did you not call Air Port Security or the Air Marshal Uniform team to take the suspect for questioning?
Do you have training ,by the Federal Air Marshal program in detecting and determining Fraudulent Passports and ID?
What were your exact counter terrorism duties?
Where they:
Watch and report,intercept if just cause and turn over/call a higher authority?

Quote Jim Wagner site:
This refers to Jim Wagner:
"He was then assigned to the Los Angeles Field Office where he began to participate in Operation Enduring Freedom doing counterterrorism missions on the ground and in the air."

DOD (Department of Defense) Operation Infinite Justice were Military Actions taken after 9/11.
Sept 25,2001,the DOD changed Operation Infinite Justice to Operation Enduring Freedom.

Were you Mr Wagner a member of the US Military after 9/11,(Not CSMR) ?
did you work for the DOD during your time as an Air Marshall?
Or
Did you hear that US Military that worked the US Airports were entitled to use the term Operation Enduring Freedom for what they were doing ,under orders from the DOD so you figured you could also use it?

Quote from your site
"Jim Wagner decided to resign from the federal government working his last day on September 11, 2003 - the one year anniversary of the terrorist attacks. "You can only watch so many people, fly around the globe back and forth, and arrest suspects before it gets a little repetitive."

In the August 2003 course you gave in NYC ,you said you left the air Marshal program after 3 months of NON INCIDENTAL Flying.(FAMs)

You claim in your bio to have worked from just after 9/11 till 9/11/03 correct?

You have documents that show you completed your training in April 02,correct?

The training in total is what 12 -13 weeks,so you joined in Feb-March 02 correct?

In August 03 you said you had quit after 3 months flying.
(August would  have been 1 month prior to your resignation)

You say you resigned Sept 11 03 ??
You say it was the FIRST ANNIVERSARY of the Sept 11 attacks?

Now if I am not mistaken the First Anniversary WAS Sept 11,02.

Wouldn't the Federal Air Marshal Service have Known and participated in all the One Year Anniversary ceremonies?
People in the airline industry expected,perhaps,another go on the anniversary so the ONE YEAR WOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANT.

If they did then one would have known for SURE when one retired?
UNLESS you resigned in SEPT 11,02,the first anniversary of 9/11 and 5 months after graduation.
(How about this,what you said at the Course was true,that you resigned after 3 months,instead of the semi patriotic resigned on 9/11/03.)

Also you claim that you were the first to claim in writing that a chemical was used on one of the Hijacked 9/11 aircraft.
Well sir the reports from people who had Phone calls which were aired on Sept 11 and shortly after,one phone call from a stewardess REPORTED that  some sort of Chemical was sprayed in the First class section.
This information was released LONG before the 9/11 commission report and I expect long before you wrote about it.(unless you wrote it the day of the event before airing the phone calls came up.
Where is that article or writing published with date written please?

The truth is without the hype you would not be selling anything.
When the immediate hype dies down you find another to morph into for a short time,like now  with the CSMR,another way to get around the stolen valor act and wear a Uniform you failed to wear for your full commitment when under Contract to US Government.


Failure to ever see anything through to completion except Hyping yourself.

[Samuel Browning]

Hi Everyone:

Its Samuel Browning from Bullshido.net

Here is a link to our thread on this matter though we are still playing catchup to this board.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72918

We also have a history of point shooting on our board which traces its connections to RBSD and I can assure you that Mr. Wagner did not invent this approach, though he is apparently claiming that he is the public founder of its counter-terror subsection.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18955

Posts #3 discussing Matt Thomas, #16 discussing Matt and others, & #25 discussing military RBSD instructors.

[Wardog]

  This Wagner thing is important because it is one of the bigger frauds in MA. It is worse because a publication that is(sort of) respected in MA and is an introduction to many novices to MA is open arm embracing him.  If you read Wagner's response on that other site to being called on the Inosanto stuff, he represents himself as having been picked up personally by Dan to attend classes. Having attended for an extended period of time. Being crushed on by his daughter. Yet Dan I can barely recall him?

   His certificates and Marine Scout Sniper stuff is clearly BS.  His CT stuff/Air Marshall gig is clearly misrepresented.  There is embellishing and there is fraud. This guy is a fraud.
He can't be without some skill because he does get work but so does Ki Chi Chuan guy, the guy who throws people around without touching them, Dillman.  You can be a legit McDojo BB and teach and represent yourself  as a McDojo BB. You can be a 15th degree BB in your own style but who takes that seriously.  But flat out lying......and being heralded by a a major MA mag as an expert? That has to stop.

[JimH]

In regards to Wagners students/instructors:
Student and Instructor is one in the same as the courses that Wagner teaches are Instructor courses.

The Majority of people who attend the Course are already based in some other art/style,they are good  but not do to what JW has taught them.

The Majority DO NOT Teach JW course alone.
They either teach it mixed in with their art/style,teach it as a supplement program to give students and others a variety and or,for most,they teach nothing of the course.

Wagner teaches Basic tools and Basic concepts only.
Knife defense:
Close the gap,isolate the weapon bearing limb,strike/hurt the opponent,down them finish and move away.

Ground defense:
Hand and cover drill from the bottom position.
Fight and move to get up quickly.
If downed and the opponent is standing learb to kick,shift and turn from the ground.

Stand up fighting:
Close the gap.
Try to Isolate /pin one or both limbs.
Strike,hurt ,down them and get away.

Add in some theatrical blood,live blades and clean ground debris and you have the full self defense course in a nut shell.

Usable material as found in many self defense and traditional schools.

Again,I have no problem with anyone and their self defense concepts as the tools are found in most arts,even deployment is similar.
People just need to find the right person to fill their needs.

What I do have a problem with is Lying and Hyping ones credentials  to entice people to go to them and spend their hard earned money.
I have a problem with people who use the military and the heroics of some to sell materials that never have been and or never will be found on a battlefield or the street.

People can learn something from anyone,an advanced practitioner can even learn from a beginner ,if they look hard enough.

People can even learn from this fellow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MZeiBq3Irw
LOL

[Benjamin Liu]

IMO it is important to know an instructor's real credentials and reputation, especially for people who plan to get certifications by various organizations.  It might not make much difference if the skills are good and the student has no desire to teach, but if someone is say, a black belt in a traditional art and wants a few RBSD certifications to market his self-defense classes, all the time, money, travel, marketing, etc. would end up being for nothing if the system turns out to be based on misleading information.  Some certifications might end up making an instructor's credentials look worse than if he did not include them.

[JimH]

Joe and all,

It is a problem of semantics,a word game to this guy.
Here are a few I picked from his response on the other forum:

Quote Wagner
"In my first military service, with the United States Army (Regular),"

This guy believes that being in the California (THE STATE of nothing more) Military Reserve,(MILITIA) that he is in the MILITARY of the US and people who do not know better swallow this BULL.
His first Militray service was short lived,he spent as more time trying to get out than he did to get in.


Quote Wagner
"Prior to this I had been an official defensive tactics and tactics instructor for:
United States Marshal Service SOG (Special Operations Group) on multiple occasions
United States Immigration & Naturalization Service Anti-Terrorism Task Force twice
German counterterrorist team GSG9 on two different occasions in Germany
Brazilian Air Force G.E.P.A. in Porto Alegre, Brazil
Argentinean G.O.E in Missiones, Argentina
Israeli Special Forces and Israeli Police two times in Israel
United States Air Force Security Forces Space Command in Colorado and then at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California
Of course, this list does not even include the dozens of SWAT teams I have trained around the world. Although I was paid for my services (except the Israelis due to a trade out), I too learned from all of these groups as well. Does this well known instructor think that I do not have the intelligence to absorb information from these world class agencies? I guess to him my years of dedication to officer safety deserves nothing more than “lol” (lots of laughs)."

The above list shows WAGNER has been to these groups and DEMONSTRATED his Material IN SELF DEFENSE ONLY.
HE uses the words
"I had been an official defensive tactics and tactics instructor for"
OFFICIAL INSTRUCTOR,makes it sound like a long term contracted Job.
Are we,the supposed stupid to him,supposed to believe he KNOWS more than these men and women of these groups who have been in business since before JW was born?

Quote Wagner
"Now we come to outright lies. First of all I never advertised in Black Belt in the late 80’s or early 90’s."

Here he plays on the words late 80's ,early 90's.
His ads appeared at the same time as his high Risk Articles,so he KNEW when the ads ran and played off the words Early 90's as compared to Late 90's when they actually ran.
See: http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php?topic=4043.0

It is all word play from a VALUE PACK/GREETING CARD salesman.
Selling words to those who will not look for the truth in all the BS.

[grlaun]

Here's the deal to everyone who thinks we're pickin' on ol'  Jim W. too much.

I'm a prior serviceman with 6 years in the Marine Corps,  I was a rifleman/recon man 0311/0321, I did my time got to the rank of Corporal, served my country & did so also at the tail end of Desert Storm/Shield.  JW may have made it through basic training and his basic schooling but he never seemed to actually have served in any other capacity other than attending schools. There are a ton of people on this forum & others who've done more simply by doing their tour(s) then JW did by discontinuing his.  Even if he had served as an admin clerk (no offense to any - couldn't have done with out ya!) for 2-4 years at least he would have been slightly more legit!

 I take unction to that fact that he has blown his record out of proportion and has allowed others to read things into it with out correction.  Lying by omission.  Essentially untrustworthy and therefore unreliable.  Hock's post on learning good things from bad people.  JW ain't never really been there done that he's skirted the real deal and plays up his wannabe status.  Although I'm glad he has enough background to actually teach effective basics, that's all he's good for - nothing more.  A militia is serving his country?  Come ON, JW!

He's trying to make himself sound like he did a high powered tour of duty but he never got past his basic training.  That's only ONE of the reasons he's being questioned.

[Joe Hubbard]

On a Ground Fighting DVD JW did for Budo, he opens the DVD up saying he was an ex- U.S. Military serving in a combat unit.    He never saw any combat or much military service for that matter.  He then says his current job is with the Costa Mesa Dignitaries Close Protection Group.  Didn't he say in his statement that he never got paid for the dignitary group in terrorist targeted Costa Mesa?

Costa Mesa Dignitaries Close Protection Group...does ANYONE know who or what that is? It appears no where.

Out

Joe

(editor's note, that was proven fraudulent claim by Costa Mesa and Orange County) Police)

[JimH]

I wonder what the world wide circulation of Black Belt magazine in its varied forms and Budo Magazine world wide are?

I ask as since Jim Wagner was a contributing writer to those magazines and OTHERS with his pics and his SGT rank,Police and Military training stories out there for at least 4 years would he possibly be recognized by a potential group of terrorist boarding an aircraft?

Even if not an Air Marshall wouldn't he still be a viable target because with his self described training in the mags He May decide to stand up to a potential Hijacker,terrorist cell?

Just curious as it seems a potential problem for a job like that.

Then again maybe Martial art mag contributors are not really that identifiable.

Hock are you and or others that you know who have been in the arts and mags awhile ever approached at airports or on planes by readers?

[Samuel Browning]

For those who would like to read Jim Wagner's various versions of his website since April 14, 2003 I recommend the following archieve called the wayback machine.

 http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.jimwagnertraining.com

[JimH]

In an above post I mentioned that JW had said in Aug 03 course that he had resigned well before the course.
He claims he resigned 9/11/03.
Which would have been the month after the Aug course.

In the way back machine
JW site on Sept 29/03 says the following:
"Back several months ago when the publisher of http://web.archive.org/web/20031012020506/http://www.realfighters.com/, WR Mann, found out that Jim Wagner resigned from the his counterterrorist position with the United States government and was teaching seminar courses, he invited Jim Wagner to New York City to establish reality-based on the East Coast."

Sept 03 web page,when it is claimed he resigned ,he is already saying
"BACK SEVERAL MONTHS AGO when WR found out that JW resigned from his COUNTER Terrorism position"
His air Marshall job.

if we look at april 03,wayback,we will see the booking for the Ireland Seminar/course.

Again Mr Wagner,when did you actually Resign and WHY ??

[Hock]

The Jim Wagner Reader

Jiim Wagner - Detecting Frauds   
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4080.0.html

The Jim Wagner 13 Questions   
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4049.0.html

Jim Wagner never on a front line SWAT team http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4084.msg35927.html

Jim Wagner once sole owner of HSS International?
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4153.0.html

Jim Wagner of Black Belt Magazine
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,636.msg34758.html

California State Military Reserves not happy with Wagner’s self-aggrandizement
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1120002010001/m/6300063161001

Jim Wagner-first with reality fighting?
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4054.msg44958.html

Jim Wagner, Romance and the Missing Ad
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4043.0.html

Jim Wagner’s only USA course , 2008 terminated
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4125.0.html

Jim Wagner way back machine
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/

Jim Wagner, only 8 months in the Army?!
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4088.0.html

Sgt Wagner, Big Boots, Little Feet
http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/07-08/index.htm

[Milldog1776]

So the whole bio has changed now:

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/aboutjimwagner.html

I couldn't sit through the whole thing, but looks like everytime one of us brings something up...he writes more.