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[Samuel Browning]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72918&page=11

This is a link to post #101, which contains a summary of a short interview with Officer Phil Hartman of the Costa Mesa police.  I promise it will be an interesting read.

(Wagner NEVER on a SWAT team.)

[Samuel Browning]

Someone (not myself) just opened up a thread on the Black Belt Magazine forums asking Jimmy to answer the 13 questions.

The link is below 

http://blackbeltmag.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=598

[Samuel Browning]

I went over to his site, and didn't see where he addressed the comments made by Officer Phil Hartman.
Also see http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4084.0.html

[Milldog1776]

He still does not address much. There are some JKD certs. up now. More on that in a minute...

Jim is performing a classic trial lawyer move. Instead of answering Hock's simple 13 questions, he is writing page after page of background non-essentials hoping that people will get lost or simply not take the time to read it.

Like I said...lawyers do the same thing. You request a simple piece of evidence, a phone record, bank transactions, etc....and the lawyers send you a mountain of evidence instead.  The piece of evidence you really want is there alright...probably mislabeled, out of order, and buried under a mountain of other shit.

Back to the Innosanto certs.
http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/images/JKD_cert_page.pdf
http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/images/Aspen_cert_page.pdf
One is for Eskrima and the other is for Wing Chun.
One is for 40 hours of training while the other is for 20 hours of training.
So if he went to class twice a week for an hour each time...that's what?....6 months of training. I don't see how that is helping his case by posting those. Niether by the way say "Instructor".

[Joe Hubbard]

These are both certificates of attendance- nothing more.   It would be like going to a Hock camp, not achieving any rank status and then post your certificate of attendance on your website.

Everybody who runs in any JKD circles knows that Wagner has never had any strong links or connections with the JKD community.  Where is the confirmation of your rank Jimbo. 

Has anybody let Paul Vunak know that JW has been going round teaching seminars and using Paul's name as long time training partners?  I would be interested what Paul has to say about that.

Out

Joe

[JimH]

Looking at the dates the certificates are from the following statement on Jim wagner's website:
Quote
"In 1978 Jim Wagner went to a 60 hour martial arts training camp, called the Aspen Academy of Martial Arts, nestled in Aspen, Colorado and took lessons from little known instructor at the time Dan Inosanto - protege of the late Bruce Lee. "

Is this training CAMP and the certificates of attendance what is to be seen as his Instructorship Certificate In JKD?? LOL
(Was Dan into Reality Based where one does not have to train long to be certified to teach??)

On the bottom left hand side of the Escrima certificate it lists 9 courses of the Inosanto Academy.

Were those 9 Courses offered in the 60 hours at Aspen?
or
Just the Escrima and wing chun?

I ask as I would bet all 9 courses were taught and of the 9 you,Mr Wagner,decided to participate in 2.
They are signed by Dan Inosanto but I would question if he taught all 60 hours  of those two subjects as alluded to or if he was the over all Instructor with assistants teaching

MR Wagner Please Post the Instructorship Certificate for you to TEACH JKD.


I have certificates for Hapkido seminars that equal approx 400 hours,those alone do not qualify me to teach Hapkido.

[Joe Hubbard]

Check this out for JW's martial arts background:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030714075340/http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/Jim_Wagner.html

Then go to his current page and read where he now has included Ted Lucay Lucay (deceased) was where he got the majority of his Kali / JKD training from. 

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/aboutjimwagner.html

Does this clown have no scruples?

Out

Joe

[Joe Hubbard]

The dates on those certificates are identical, which leads me to believe that they were both given for attendance to the Aspen Camp.  I guess that adds up to a week or two of training.  He then claims on his site that he carried on for two years studying with Dan, but nothing to show for it; really not one certificate in two years?  I wonder if Burt Richardson knows anything about him as he was part of that Concepts thing at the time.  You know if he attained any rank, he would be whoring that around like a Thai slut with a Desert Eagle cock holster for sure.  He still claims he taught the London Metropolitan police, but his only documented evidence is that silly picture of him in a police uniform while on a drive along.  Again, if he ever did any real training with them he would have a photo and video diary that Steven Spielberg would die for; the whore that he is.

Out

Joe

[JimH]

Wagner does claim training,twice a week with Dan and BURTON,as well as being the training partner of Paul Vunak,lol.

As said,two whole years and not one rank certificate in any of the 9 subject matter classes under the Filipino/Kali school taught in LA by Dan ??

Wagner says he was already teaching out of his home before  any training with Ted Lucay.


Hey,but he has those Aspen certificates,60 hours total must be good for for opening your own JKD school,even if out of your house,lol.

[JimH]

Mr Wagner,
you said you trained with Kyoshi Yamazaki.
(you sid you trained with him in 1977,so what does Arnold Schwarzenegger have to do with it and your being in the same building as Arnold,39 years later?)
You rose to the rank of Green Belt .
You were studying for Brown Belt when you saw a Bruce Lee movie,told Kyoshi Yamazaki you wanted to learn kung Fu,he said it was no good so you left,Correct?

Do you have ranks for the Belts between Green and Brown?

Here is the rank structure from kyoshi Yamazaki's school:
Grade Belt Color Minimum Time in grade
before next test
Recruit White One Month
10th Kyu* Yellow One Month
9th Kyu* Gold One Month
8th Kyu Orange Three Months
7th Kyu Green Three Months
6th Kyu Blue Three Months
5th Kyu Purple Three Months
4th Kyu Red Three Months
3rd Kyu Brown Six Months
2nd Kyu Brown w/ 1 Stripe Six Months
1st Kyu  Brown w/ 2 Stripes Six Months
Shodan Black Two Years
* 9th and 10th Kyu ranks are informal ranks and may be omitted per local instructor's authority.

What happened to Blue,Purple and Red before Brown
to reach Brown Belt would have taken 15 months from Sept 25,1977 ,NO?
That would have been November 1978,No?

Another story you got caught with,LOL.

Maybe it took Kyoshi to Green Belt to see you skills and he was going to jump you to Brown Belt?
I bet that is it right?



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Quote from Jim Wagner's site:
"If you had a desire to learn how to sky dive or SCUBA dive for the first time, would you want to learn from someone who has never jumped from an airplane before or someone who only got their underwater experience from a swimming pool? Of course not, and yet most civilian self-defense instructors have never been in an actual life-and-death conflict, and are merely passing down information given to them from their instructors. Even if they have been in the proverbial “bar fight” in their past the question must be asked, “Have they been shot at, attacked with a knife, or looked into the eyes of a criminal or terrorist?”

Quote from wagner's site under the HSS section:

In 2002 Jim Wagner was again thrown into the fire when the president of HSS International said to Jim, "Our instructor for the tactical dive course cancelled and I don't have anyone that can go to Miami. Jim, you are the only one I've got who can pull it off." Jim told his partner that although he had plenty of SCUBA and maritime training under his belt, he was not comfortable being the chief instructor to professional police dive teams. However, after much arm twisting Jim reluctantly agreed to fly to Miami and teach the course to the half dozen agencies hosted by the North Miami Police Department.

The important point of the HSS Section on Wagner's site in relation to the above follows:

"I learned then and there that teaching was not always about direct experience, but accumulated experiences or just a good solid understanding of the material. Being a good instructor is about learning information well and passing it on to others.

So Jim,
Is it important to learn from someone who has done the things they say,as you wrote in the First Paragraph above?
Or
Is it important to NOT have Done the things you teach,but just have a good understanding that you can relate to students,as you wrote in the third/last paragraph from your site above?

Again
If you say you are from Harvard and teach Math and people pay good money to you
Then
You find out that they were actually only a Janitor at Harvard with a basic understanding of Math
Would you Say
They got something for the BIG BUCKS you charged ?
They never did the research on you ? (Buyer beware)
They got what they paid for and you should be able to keep doing what you do,making false claims and charging BIG BUCKS for the basic Understanding?

In the Instruction of the ADVANCED TACTICAL Dive Course mentioned above did it dawn on you that these ADVANCED divers were paying for Instruction from a supposed Advanced Tactical DIVE Instructor,who it turns out was not even a Basic Tactical Dive Instructor ?
Did you feel bad taking the full amount for BS Instruction ?
Did getting away with fake Instruction on that day pad your resume to then reflect you were NOW an advanced Tactical Dive Instructor ?

LOL

I am also Curious still of this claim of being shot at you keep writing about.
As in 2003 at your Instructor Course you CLAIMED to us that you never Have Been shot at. So since you were already done with all type Police/FAM Work and out working as a Private Citizen in 2003,when did you get shot at ?

Was it shot at by simulated ammo at a training course ?

Since you do not know the disposition of the supposed TERRORISTS you engaged as an Air Marshall,how do you know what looking into the eyes of a Terrorists is like?
Funny in the Instructors Course in 2003 you said you had gone through time as a FAM as UNEVENTFUL,yet NOW you have some Great stories of saving the world.

I still wonder what the FAM Bosses thought of the incident,if there REALLY was one,of you suspecting a man of having something in his brief case taking the man off the plane and you OPENING the Brief Case on the Plane to find the documents of a NUCLEAR Nature ?

Imagine if the case had a bomb in it ?
Not very sound Real World Tactics to me.
Hey but having an UNDERSTANDING over HAVING DONE the Subject Matter is all that matters as an Instructor anyway.
RIGHT JIM ?

LOL

All your claims are all to make you seem like a Been There Done That Guy.
I guess you are ,in a REALITY BASED SENSE,Just a Basic Understanding Guy,rather than a REAL World Done It Guy.

Jim Wagner says:
I was a member of SWAT,but as Command Post Operations Officer,not a door kicking member
But in doing that Job
I learned,(but did not do/got a Basic Understanding of),How SWAT Teams Operate,Tactics, Hostage Rescue,Hostage Negotiations,Logistics and SNIPING.
LOL
And from that UNDERSTANDING you now teach this BS.
LOL

What a Great Country America where those with UNDERSTANDING are held on a Higher Level than those with ACTUAL Real World Experiences and these Theorists are TEACHING The Real world Operators ?
Wagner, Aizik , Kanarek,to name a few, supported by Magazines such as Black Belt and BUDO,Blitz and others and given Credibility which is undeserved,which fools the consuming public.

[JimH]

Mr Wagner On your site you say
"Jim Wagner hooked up with some Vietnamese immigrants at his High School who taught him Vietnamese kung-fu. He then went to a local Hawaiian kenpo school in Newport Beach until that closed down several months later. The instructor had taken a samurai sword to the school in the middle of the night and completely destroyed the place and became a lumber jack up in Washinton State. One of the black belts, Jeff Huff, who came to the destroyed school at the same moment Jim did, took Jim under his wing as a private student and taught him the very traditional martial art of Po Keck Yin Yang Kung-fu and some ballet dance exercise for balance."

Now you got promoted in Sept 25,77 to green belt,left a short time later.
Joined Dan in aspen August 78
So you trained with all these people,listed above,and NOT A ONE is an Instructor in any style art or form,are they?

You have listed now on your site a Filipino/Kali membership card.
Jim Wagner Class II member 1979,Head Instructor Dan Inosanto
Your Class Instructor Bustillo.

I am wondering why the Name Wagner is smudged up and re written over.
I am wondering why the Letter N in Wagner does not match the "N" in Dan and Inosanto

You say on your site that it is a Membership signed by Dan Inosanto,can you please tell me where on the card Dan's signature is as all the names are printed?
What is a Class II membership?
Is it  the Class taught by Bustillo?

You began teaching JKD and Kali out of your house in 1980,Right?
So in the year of twice a week classes did you become an Instructor?

Quote from your site
"In 1980 Jim started teaching close friends and associates privately under the Jeet Kune Do banner before going into the army."

Did teaching stuff you were not qualified to teach become a habit in 1980 and since you got away with it being a part time student ,you expanded to teaching unqualified materials as a way of life,figuring NO ONE would ever catch on?

I hear a song in my head
Lyrics go something like this:

When the walls come
tumblin' down
When the walls come crumblin' crumblin'
When the
walls come tumblin' tumblin' down

John Cougar Mellencamp seems so fitting

[JimH]

Should we Lleave him alone???

Let's see:
A Phony who is using a padded Bio to make money off of people.
He has embellished his record and is using misinformatioon as means to make money,a CON Artist.
They have those in Prisons don't they?

Customers...you paid Big Bucks for your Certificate from him right? Would you have paid if you knew he was full of it?

What will his instructors do if he goes down? He mentioned me in his Blitz article and fluffed me off as a know-nothing, like his Air Marshall job was a Real Antiterrorism Job. He even defended his Counterterrorism Position as that is what being Vigilant is. Please, are TSA screeners antiterrorism specialists.

I defended his materials and disliked his sales hype and Now I will attack his statements,his sales hype,so perhaps others will not get ripped off.

Anti-Terrorism for an Air Marshall is when some one gets out of their seat,rushes the cockpit,gains entry and tries to take control of the aircraft. If at that time the Air Marshall gets up and stops him by any means needed then he,the Air Marshall,has done his job.

If a man gets up and acts unstable,is that a means for the Air Marshall to blow his cover and act?
No. The Air Marshall acts when the aircraft is under THREAT. If the Air Marshall rides in an aircraft and a Man gets up and tells the stewardess he wants to Hijack the plane to Cuba,is that an act the Air Marshall will act On? Yes, if the Air marshall believes the threat.

Is the act of apprehending the Possible Hijacker an act of Antiterrorism? No.
As the Hijacker had no intention of THREATENING the passengers or crew.

Distinction of Threat and distinction of job.
He SAYS he rode for 140 missions,he rode for 3 months, 5 Max, WITHOUT incident.
He was vigilant, reading his mag,watching the seat back TV and or writing his next Black Belt Article, Give me a Break.

If we read JW's pages on his time as an Anti Terrorism specialist we see all he focused on where Middile Eastern passengers. This is who he selected as a potential threat,which turned out to be a nobody,but he says the man was removed by the Feds. Then the Middle eastern man who followed his friend, another agent,that he called the Orange County Female Officer for, then he goes off on her, that she screwed up.

Always the leader,the Instructor in all he writes and it is all BS. JW is all about the Hype,all about the BS,time to let others Know and let them decide if BS is worth the money to learn basics and BS.

As an Instructor level one certified:
Do you feel you can properly teach anti terrorism and crime survival?

Wagner is teaching theory.
His unarmed skills are basic and are usable as they are found in ALL arts.
Once he gets into his other areas of believed expertise he subjects the student and reader to false sense of secrurity as he is OUT OF HIS DEPTH.

Anyone who believes that civilians in a work place can use his concepts to survive a sniper,a terrorists bombing,a terrorism Bio/chem attack is kidding themselves and he is cashing in on this BS.

Let him produce REAL paper work. Now let him Put up or SHUT DOWN.

[JimH]

LOL
Joe,
Who can keep up with the rewrites LOL.

The names remain the same and the stories change around them.

Before he left Kiyoshi Yamazaki because he wanted to learn Kung Fu,now his family moved away.

Come on Jim get a story and stick to it Please,lol.

So many changes and so little time.

The walls of the stories are caving in,save yourself.

I hope the Editors of Black Belt and BUDO are watching this ever changing show.

[JimH]

I do not have a personal issue Mr Wagner.
I have defended his MATERIALS on this Forum and others.
(a search  will show this)
I have also said I disliked his methods of Selling his Misinformation as a Sales Tactic.
My posts on this go way back on this forum and others.
I also have the same problem with Sales that use Misleading information and claims like from Darren Levine of Krav Maga ,Peterson of SCARS,Perkins of Attack Proof,Petire of CDT and others.
I have said thought that they also have some God points in their Materials,I disagree with their sales tactics.
I have used Bruce Lee as an example:
Had Bruce Lee claimed to have been a Certified Instructor of Wing chun I am sure the Community would have jumped on him.
Bruce Lee created his Own style and sold the STYLE not BS claims.
If you want to sell your materials then sell them on the truth and the Proof of the Material not the TRS styled hyped up BS.

I was but a singular person with an opinion talking up the materials and attacking the sales hype.
I had an outlet on this forum and others towrite my opinions.
(We are all entitled to our opinions)
Others apparently have grown to the same conclusion,the hype has swamped the truth.
Now there are others and the numbers have grown.
People want the truth as apparently the LIES  and MISINFORMATION have gone on long enough.

I do not like that I was brought up in his article in Blitz,but again I do not have a PERSONAL problem with Mr Wagner.
I found Mr Wagner to be a Nice Guy,with some basic skills and a big SELF Image who loves to talk about himself.
Not unlike others I have met in the Martial art.
(too bad we now see most of the talk about himself and his background are FAKE)
I have an Issue with Facts about his background.
The Background used to launch his Sales Hype.

If one pays $1500 ,or more now,for a week of Jim Wagner courses is that a lot?
I did not think so 1500 to me was not a Big Deal.
Would I pay it again knowing what I know?
NO
That is why I and I guess many others DO NOT go back for level 2 or higher.

Do I think it is a problem for others?
Possibly
Especially if they invest their $1500 dollars and expect to make a living from the Wagner name.
(this has also been mentioned by lawman as a concern for Wagner Instructors)

I also imagine that Mr Wagner has run his Course in the US as his site says there is ONLY 1 US Course given in 2008 and it is in NY in Dec.
WHY?
Why are most of his Courses done outside of the US?
Are people outside the US That more in tune with what REALLY Works?

Why am I asking questions for Clarity of Mr Wagner?
Because now that more people are interested in the truth then it is owed to me ,to lawman and to others who paid our money to be instructors under him.
It is owed to the BUYING Public.
It is Owed to the Readers of his articles.
I have not said that Mr Wagner Does Not have experiences,he does,just not the Experiences of the Magnitude claimed.

As Asked
If Mr Wagner Claims the Military then why pretend to be an NCO In an Infantry unit when you spent 8 months in the US Army Total ,most in training and Most of the same time trying to get out?

If Mr Wagner Claims to have worked in the Jail,fie,then why claim to have been exposed to countless fights in the Jail in which you had to develop a system of usable H2H,when such events NEVER Happened.

If Mr Wagners Claims to have Been a JKD Instructor under Inosanto or Bustillo,then where is the Paper work.
(is attending a seminar qualification enough,I do not think Dan Inosanto believes so)

If Mr Wagner claims to have been an ACTIVE member of a SWAT Team and talks about encounters and jobs as a SWAT team member and now we find that he has never been in such a position and this position and claim is a MAJOR Factor in his BIO and his Sales pitch then he should be called on it.

Sorry ,but if selling Hyped up BS seems OK to people then they deserve to be Ripped off because apparently their goal is also to live under the HYPED up Banner of BS that has been shown to be Mr Wagner and they plan to use this same sales BS for their own gains.

I will continue to ask questions of Mr Wagner.
I am glad this forum and others allow such dialogue and expression of Opinions as a way to Stop the Insanity that is and has been a way of some to sell what they teach.

As Hock Said on his reply to Wagner on POWNET:
There is NO Martial arts Wall of shame.
If posting questions,that NEVER get answered stops some from being ripped off then that is FINE with me.
If questions raise doubts about the Validity of claims made and they are not answered to the Buying publics satisfaction then that is fine by me,as long as fakes are exposed for what they are and the public ,(who bother to search) are given a CHOICE in their decision making

Mr Wagners responses to the questions has been the ever evolving BIO Pages.

[JimH]

Mr Wagner,
On the PDF File page on your site for YOUR Students.
You have pictures listed and the claim of the Pictures is that these people were trained BY YOU,Correct?

Are there others in the Photos from HSS international ?

I am curious as the picture of GOPLAT Eva as the first picture  on the first PDF is from HSS GOPLAT Training,isn't it?
(GOPLAT is Gas and Oil Rig Platform Training)
The listed INSTRUCTORS for that were:
Tom Love and Jose Martinez

The Tactical Swimmer pic,2nd picture ,1st PDF students
The Instructor was :
Frank Ortega
(you are not listed as an Instructor or Assistant)

The Bodyguard/Protective services Operator
Page 3 PDF,1st pic
It says Jim Wagner DPU.
isn't this picture also from HSS International?
The Instructor was Kevin Mitchell

Where are the JIM WAGNER ONLY Students?

Why all pics of HSS trainining and claims of Instructor and Assistant in the pics when you are not?
You are there
You got in the Pics
but in what capacity?

I wish I had more time.

I will keep plugging along though and I am SURE I will have more questions and more MISINFORMATION from MR Wagner.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The sniper/counter sniper clip had supposed snipers,wearing ghillie suits,(so you knew they were snipers,lol), walking down an unvegitated road/drainage ditch.
They looked as if they were just shooting the breeze,might as well have had a beer and a cigarette in their hands.

They would have known they were in enemy territory and would have been moving slowly,carefully,with STEALTH and CUNNING.

They would not have been that close together.
They would have been moving in the grass,the same grass the counter snipers were in.
They would be moving slowly,stopping,listening,watching,and then resuming movement.
They would not be straight up in the open.

All a concocted joke by an Idiot who knows NOTHING about Military Movement,Movement learned by all weapons carrying troops,not just snipers.

Hey but someone probably paid to learn that trash from JW.
As said I hope this TRASH was not what HSS was teaching as well.