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[Webby]

I was trying to explain to My local cop's ( South London U.K ) at a crime reduction meeting why knifes are used more than gun's in street and gang violence.

It go's something like this : guns are loud ( that's not good for criminal activity ), gun's leave all manner of trace evidence in the victim, at the scene and on the user ( knife use has trace, but not as much, knifes are a use once and chuck weapon. Crim's tend to hand onto gun's ). Guns are expensive and hard to come by ( not so for knifes ) gun's require some skill level ( again..not so for knifes ) Gun's jam, run out of bullets ( knifes don't ) gun's carry an automatic prison sentence, knife carry does not..in practice the courts have until very recently given much more lenient sentences even for murder if it was committed with a knife. Gun's can be bulky, knifes more concealable.

The Senior Police Office said '' We take about 400 guns off the streets every month in London ''. I asked how many of those where, deactivated, blank firing, replicas, toy's, air pistols etc. He was honest and admitted that the vast majority where not ''real'' gun's. I then asked how many of the thousands of knifes carried where rubber ones. Reminding him that according to The Home Office more than 30% of youngsters Nationwide carry knifes ( Source Home Office Knife Crimes. Org. UK 2010 ). He admitted all the knifes are real.

I need feed back on this.. over to you guy's.

LOL Webby                       

[Canuk]

what are you looking for feed back on?

1. treat all guns as real, loaded and ready to go.
2. expand from knife to edgeed weapon, include all things that can cut, wound or lacarate. Think credit card with one side filed down to a shaper edge razor blades in the boots that sort of thing

[Webby]

Sorry,
         Let me clarify what I'm after in terms of feedback.
Have I missed anything obvious ? Am I highlighting the threat in the right way ?
I'm asking you guy's the question, am I correct in my argument that criminals favour knifes here because of the reasons I've mentioned, are there more reasons ?, or have I got my facts completely wrong ?

Ultimately, I'm trying to persuade my local Police to invest time into edged weapon awareness training for officers.

LOL Webby..     
   

[whitewolf]

Morning Wbby- i think that the reason lots of Brit kids carry knifes instead of guns is that :

1-easier to get and conceal in clothing
2-Can carry it and get out quickly
3-Not as noticeable
4-its extention of hand /arm and therefore moves quickly
5-MAKES them feel like they are the man and will hurt anyone who needs it.
6-be PART  of the group- all armed....
7-makes the victim go into fear mode-the attacker likes that.
8-after use it disappears quickly from view
9-the kids thaink its the weapon of choice-like the idea that the public is alarmed at this

man i should have been a head shrink- - WW

[Dawg]

"The Senior Police Office said '' We take about 400 guns off the streets every month in London ''. I asked how many of those where, deactivated, blank firing, replicas, toy's, air pistols etc. He was honest and admitted that the vast majority where not ''real'' gun's. I then asked how many of the thousands of knifes carried where rubber ones. Reminding him that according to The Home Office more than 30% of youngsters Nationwide carry knifes ( Source Home Office Knife Crimes. Org. UK 2010 ). He admitted all the knifes are real."

This statement alone should prove the need for increased edged weapon awareness training for your officers. Your point about the dangers of fake guns versus real knives is very well made.

Since you already have the number of guns confiscated by police, it shouldn't be too much of an effort to acquire the additional info on the percentage of crime committed with firearms and compare it with the percentage of crime committed with edged weapons along with the numbers of fatalities and injuries to officers from offenders armed with each. From your first post, I get the impression that you must already have some kind of statistics available in order to determine that knives are being used more than guns in your local gang environment.

I know statistics can be used to say whatever you want them to with the right spin, but the powers that be really seem to love the stats when you're trying to sell them on some type of training program. If you can acquire the cost of lost man hours alone due to injury to your officers (especially if it correlates to the increased knife useage), it would probably assist you in justifying the additional training you're suggesting.

All of the reasons you listed for gang members choosing an edged weapon over a firearm were logical and well presented.

Good luck!

[Hock]

When I return to the London Metro Police Academy this December, for two days, all we will cover is unarmed versus the knife and stick, as requested. The course is open for all police and I think it is quite affordable because so many officers come from all over the UK.

Hock

 

[Webby]

Hock,
        When you come over can you make a point of explaining to them about proper searchiing and ' palming '. I see cop's stopping and searching regular as clock work. I don't know who's been training them, but believe me, it is currently at a standard that leaves a great deal to be desired.

True Story : When I was nursing we had a guy brought into A+E  by The Police he was incredibly bloody from a fight ( mostly facial injuries ), the cop's went off for a coffee break. As we then started to help him, a folding knife dropped out of his pants pocket and hit the floor. Big reaction from the staff, ' We've found the knife ! threat over ! ' I pinned him down ( not very caring I admit ) and my female college frisked him and we found two more folding knifes ( identical to the one that was dropped ) a four inch streak knife a small amount of cocaine, a big wad of cash ! 

He had already been searched by The Police.

I was angry, scared and frustrated. The cop's said zip.

Webby..

           

[Hock]

And it sounds crazy, but there are also legal issues involved with searching certain people at certain times. In other words, the difference between a "investigative stop" or frisk, and search incidental to arrest. Either way, sometimes various makes and models of weapons can be real tricky to detect inside various clothing.

As an aside, we had a well-known, infamous, very fat, female criminal in our city and once when she was arrested, a complete book-in search discovered a loaded, snubnose revolver up her vagina. Barrel up.

Hock   

[Webby]

Hock in reply to your lady with the revolver. Three short tales I've come across :

Guy had deliberatly, put a knife inside a wound on his leg that had scabbed over to avoid detection in prison.

Guy in India cannot be flown to Germany for a fraud trail as he has swallowed a knife and travel could move it. He has refused medical treatment to have it removed.

Female mental patent had an obsession with needles she would stick them in fruit and sandwiches for the unsuspecting. She sabotaged a nursing supply cupboard and stuck them in Tampons.

Crazy world we live in mate.

LOL Webby