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[whitewolf]

sense I am getting a lot of questions from my small student class on knife defense
I thought I would ask this question.

I am far from a expert on knife defense but have been shown a few defenses over the past couple years- my question is:

what is best basic first training response for a knife stab-where they come for you
(not stabbing in and out but a straight stab to your mid area)

I know its hard to explain without a trainer in front of me but give it a shot guys

I do not know anyone who teaches defense in this area at all-in fact I think I am the
only one who shows gun/stick and knife defense art all

thats why I try to take Hocks seminars when i can and why i went to Poland and greece
to take classes- i feel I am a novice but in the class we are going quixcker and quicker
and the takeaways or reattacks are working (at least in the class room arena)

thanks WW

and the

[JimH]

A determined thrust to the mid section.

Not seen until the last minute:
Parry the blade with a swipe while stepping in and off to the side.

Blade comes in from a right hand stab
Swipe away/parry with right arm as you step in and on angle to your left
This position puts you parallel ,or slightly behind the attacker which enable you to get away,strike and or deal with the truning to engage attacker.

If Blade is seen:
Parry with cross hand,strike weapon bearing limb with and or wrap weapon bearing limb and strike till attacker is down.

Blade comes right hand stab to mid section
left arm parries,swipes,pushes blade to outside,(My right)
I step into attacker,at angle to my left side
I use my right arm to strike attackers right forearm and or then wrap limb
I am parallel and or slightly behind attacker with available targets of neck,throat,face ,eyes ,nose
Hold arm secure and strike vital areas until opponent goes down
I also am at the side and can drive a downward kick into opponents kneee and drive it and him/her to the ground.
Never releasing the weapon bearing limb until attacker is desarmed or down and out allowing me to get away.

Here is a clip,from the static but it can be used with a thrust.
Part similar to my explanation at around 40 seconds (No limb control,just violence of action)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0SfgolItm8

Have fun

[Hock]

I like that chop to the knife arm example. The second scenario. It's an "impact disarm." I think that serious a blow will likely dislodge the knife from the knifer's grip. Good acting on the clip. Convincing demonstration.

When showing that scenario he says, "forget about the knife," but he doesn't really mean that exactly, because he chops the weapon bearing limb. He has not and cannot forget about the knife. I don't think he means exactly that because he does not "forget about the knife." I think he is making a verbal misstatement "in the moment." I think he actually means that you have to hit the computer (the head) as quickly as possibly and not over-fuss with the knife limb in elaborate moves.

I teach a whole counter-knife, impact disarm module about this very subject -  the Spartan Module that does that same thing. But I also teach two more simple modules when all the blows land and well...sort of miss (enemies move and block) and the knife cannot be ignored and/or does not get dislodged. (Chain of the Knife" module and "In the Clutches" of.)

When I teach the Spartan Impact Disarms I see that some people around the world doubt the power of the blow, but I do trust a good limb strike to work often. But I have some people that are moderate or less-in-size and strength and may not generate that force.

In the Unarmed Spartan Module, the knife attacker:
   * draws his weapon - you strike
   * halfway completes the draw - you strike
   * weapon threat - presents the weapon (like in this film clip)
   * attacks on the four corners of the combat clock - you strike.
                  - knifer slashes
                  - knifer stabs

In the Unarmed Chain of the Knife, module the impact don't work. They don't always work so you can NEVER FORGET the man has a knife (or pistol). You have to stun and then try a grab on the limb. A failed impact disarm, and just like in the first scenario of the video clip, the knifer takes a solid blow to the arm and does not drop the knife. (When the knifer is next hit in the neck, the knifer may fall and may well still wildly cut the defender open across the stomach or leg, or arm. Forget the knife? Wha?)


In the Unarmed Clutches Module, you grab him as he grabs you.
  
There is a dangerous tendency in some of the older WW II era materials to completely neglect weapons (even pistols!) in the scenarios which I think can be fatal mistake in doctrine. I recall seeing some old WW II pistol moves where the enemy soldier is hit forcefully and falls backward and while still holding the pistol and this trainer fires a blank...to the side. Which could easily have been a bullet to the defender, either accidentally or on purpose.  I have also seen some really dangerous disregard of the knife as the trainee moves it to attack the knifer.

But, anyway...barking out orders for students to always "forget about the knife!" is a mistake in doctrine.

Of course these clips are notoriously taken out of context. The curse of the clip.

Hock

[JimH]

In the clip when Clint,the victim,says forget about the knife he means to not stop the forward momentum and strikes to vital targets to focus on the knife or the knife bearing limb.
Too many become focused on securing the limb they stop to secure when they could just as easily move in parallel or past parallel and strike,also by moving in at angle the position of the victim is one where he/she will not be cut or stabbed unless the knife attacker is given time and space to adjust their position to reengage with the blade.
This is why continuos strikes by the victim are needed.

I would have used one of Hock's clips had I found one similar to my response.
The clip I used,even though off the static, was similar and still applicable.

[whitewolf]

Excellent info- the one where the victim blocks with his leftforearm and then chops seems good-i will try that tonight plus add  this- as the left forearm comes across and blocks the right arm -i will bring up accross to my face and then slam it down to the wrist area of the knife-then rt palm to face as left hand pull back of head forward-continuous motion....ill play with it with the students and see what comes out of it.

I also have read that as knife is thrust the victim moves to side using both forarms to block and then lunges forward and does a head twist.

I agree that the knife should always part of the defense-i agree what what was said .

Thanks- I will review these tactics a   lot -its my on line self defense school-
Whitewolf

[Hock]

You have to use those clips, I don't have any on the web because I am afraid to select a few minutes of anything and then be out of context and fall under a great debate. The curse of the out of contest film clip.

Hock

[gematriot]

Hi everyone...

Any comments on the Cestari clip, that shows up right after?...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JezWTnD_h1I&NR=1

Also I was referred to this link, by an acquaintance that seems enamoured by the approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4X1uiPdIQ
My own 2 cents: context may be very relevant here. The video may be presenting the first step in a progression towards "grabbing with the Double C grip and moving to the outside of the elbow" tactic?

Both clips seem to imply... never grab the weapon bearing limb, which Mr. Hochheim, for very good reasons, decries.

[Hock]

With a knife in my hand, in a sterile environment I can methodically show anyone how to defeat any block or grab a person will do. We call these "Counters to Common Blocks."
There are 3:
       1: Cut the block
       2: Redirect the attack on another line of attack
       3: Knife invading hands
                       * the 4 Ps
                               - pinning
                               - passing
                               - pulling
                               - pushing
    
So, when a guy blocks or chops at your knife limb, you pull back and cut the chop
So, when they block or chop your attack, you re-direct the attack on another line
So, if your weapon limb is blocked or grabbed? You pin, pass , push or pull free  

The only problem is...you have to physically do it in an actual fight! To execute it! Sometimes you don't. Or can't. Speed. Strength, whatever, etc. BUT you practice these actions because they are quite probable.        

Defending against the knife attack? Here's the deal, when you have a fully alert, undiminished person with a knife in front of you to stab or slash you. It is really gonna' suck.  Whether the attacker is trained or untrained. Worse if he know the aforementioned tricks. ALWAYS fight with something if you can.

In these clips - Cestari is also playing the part of the soon-to-be-so-easily-wounded person to prove his own point in that clip. To completely and always ignore the possibility of a life-saving arm wrap and/or grab on a weapon limb as an option is a fool's doctrine. An incomplete doctrine. And a mistaken doctrine. I would find it hard to believe that Carl Cestari, a ju-jitsu guy,  never, ever grabbed the arm of his opponent in any fight scenario, weapon or otherwise? That clip must be out of context. Sometimes you have a grab. And you have to learn how to grab standing or in a ground fight.

Sometimes you have already hit the guy three times in the head and he attacks with the knife. He is already stunned and diminished and grab-able. This the Myth of the First Event -  that EVERY single tactic must work the first instant, the first event of a fight on a fully alert, fully charged enemy. The grab might be the 5th event in a fight.

How many times have totally untrained civilians grabbed the knife limb of an attacker? Probably once a day on the planet. Trick is you have to eye gouge or beat the snot out of the knifer instantly while or after the grab. Instantly. But I have worked some of these cases.  I have seen the cases and read about the cases.

The second clip, the guy in the gym is defeating a grab with a push/pull releasing technique (see option #3 above) and then frankly quite skillfully manipulates the knife for a cut. He is using a releasing techniques and a small circle slash. He acts like a magician to the karate crowd around him. This might massage his ego. The foolish message is that grabs are useless. (If Nick Hughes, Mick Coup or Tom Barnhart grabbed my knife arm? I would have hell slippy-slapping their grip away. Especially if the instant they grabbed my arm, they belted me in the jaw.)

The moral of the story is a grab can be defeated. And that's big news? SO CAN EVERYTHING ELSE. So can slamming away the knife limb and not grabbing as many practitioners just redirect their attack on another line. "No grabbing ever" is just a dangerous message to be broadcasting. I could go on and on about this point. Soon the student forgets to grab and might miss a life-saving opportunity.

But here is the biggest point and problem in ALL combatives training. Its that sterile room thing. And ALL fights are highly, HIGHLY situational, as are knife confrontations.

Who is attacking?
What does he want?
Where are you?
When is the attack?
How is the attack coming in?
Why is he attacking?

These little three-step, dance routines in sterile rooms by me and these martial experts, no matter how tough they talk and sound, are like shooting bullets at paper targets at range. Horribly "one-person, "short-sighted and shallow.

Hock

[whitewolf]

Hock- all i can say is you speak the truth-
Last night we tried some of the tactics in class-
the deputy sheriff said-he will always attempt to grab  hold on for dear life of the knife hand and beat the living shit out the face of the attacker-

to continue- what we do is over and over -attacker stabs-victim moves off center line-
uses double forearm block
grabs with hand
outside hand does repeated strikes to face with palm or fist
or- does a fast hard swipe with claw fingers to face as they swing by it then
continue with strikes-kicks

Deputy thinks that is pretty good-he commented without holding on to wpn hand you are in trouble
We are also experimenting with the False lead and steping back in to the attacker as shown  by dog brothers.

When I come end of sep to talahoma you can review for me the above-

WW

[Canuk]

Ive been in a situation where I wrapped the arm at his elbow and hugged it into me so that his forearm was past my back (didnt plan it, just sort of fell into it, he came in with a sort of half assed downward 45 degree angle with a busted bottle) followed up with many an elbow to the face and i think a few knee strikes. The guy was just fixated on the bottle and trying to losen my grip on him so he could something. It seems that some times people will "fixate" on the weapon and loss sight of the objective.

[JimH]

A person with intent alone can hurt ,or kill,you.
Get a person with a little knowledge in knife use and or  a person who does not fixate on the weapon and who will use their other hand to strike and break free of a grab or wrap and you have a serious condition.

If you have a person who gets close and pumps hard and fast,Prison yard style,as demonstarted in Carl Cestari's clip,you have an almost impossible task of defense ahead .

There are NO absolutes in knife defense.

If one trains hard against realistic attacks then one can develop a set of tactics ,but each attacker adds a difference which can be the difference that kills you.

If a person has a bit of distance and stabs at you:
A Parry to a strike,close the gap to be along side or behind and strike vitals ,may work.
Parry to a full grab and or strike and Grab,a good grab which catches the attacker behind or slightly above the weapon bearing limb elbow locking the arm into you as they hold the blade at 90 degrees/parallel to the floor and position yourself along side or behind and striking vitals also may work .

Parrying the Blade and continuing to Parry without striking the weapon bearing limb,the vitals of the collar bone up and or wrapping or grabbing the weapon bearing limb will only lead to allowing the attacker more chances to get it right.

The Clip of Clint is Classic WWII Parry and Strike as Taught by Fairbain and as taught to Clint by Carl.
The Clip of Carl Cestari is to show what a worst case,Prison yard attack of a person intent on killing is like .
The Clip of the FMA knife grab is pure show as the grabs shown are not true attempts to secure the weapon bearing limb but grabs of the limb with easy escapes and parries with the knife.

Do as WW is doing and take ideas and techniques and have realistic attacks and defenses and see what works and what do not and develop a tool box of possibles .

[whitewolf]

OK- lets go a little further-As Hock points out there are other angles to defend from -so i have the class and me get on our knees and block and reattack-its awkward -next will be on the ground side by side-as i said i am not a expert but i do know that continued training "out of the Box" helps us prapare for the unexpected.
WW

[whitewolf]

Canuk- you mentioned the attacker holding the bottle and not letting go-in one of  the Dog brothers vidios they call that the "monkey fist" thts where they put a piece of fruit in a jar and the monkey puts his hand in it but cant get his fist out because he refuses to let go of the food- same principle- i tell that story in my class- interesting concept-
in your case it helped win the confortation and you won- -we tried that in the class and when we werte on the floor the police officer just did not let go of the wpn and i simulated punching him-=although far from a expert i am digging up evrything i can to be nore knowledgable -but the real test although i hope it never happens is being in a real fight against a knifer-but the more practise the safer i will be--stay  safe  WW

[Hock]

In real life it can work but in an properly led class, when you simulate the strikes, the training partner must act a bit like he's been hit, else he will ignore your strikes and still stab and stab. If you and your students do not have an "enlightened eye" you will think you lost and was stabbed to death! (this is why I think eye attacks are critical first response to a lot of knife attacks.)

This point is EXACTLY why ground and pound ground fighting took about a decade and a half to dominate MMA and UFC. Years of improper practice (too much submission). Pretend/simulated strikes were ignored and the partners were left just to wrestle until shallow brains rewired themselves to only wrestle.

Hock
(The Shallows - the shallow brain and learning reviewed here
http://www.hockscqc.com/bookclub/hockshowlingcommando.htm)

[whitewolf]

As Hock points out eye attacks are paramount in a wpn attack (knife-stick-bottle)-
I agree also about the partner having to act like he was hurt-
that is a good thought-how does one have more reality without using a "redman suit"
or similar equipment?
When we do gun take aways I have them actually use the should and sort of push the attacker away as they take the gun instead of the attacker jsut sort of standing there
as it seems to be more realistic. I have a few ladies in one of my classes really getting on with the gun takeaway.
I have a SF friend that has a special knife that gives off a electrical shock -when they
use it and hit the hand or body it sets off a shock that really hurts-great for realistic takeaways-
WW (ELB) "speed of light