Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hock]

    "How do these martial con men get such exposure as to con customers worldwide into their near super-hero-like, contrived backgrounds? They simply pay magazines. You can even buy the covers! Many con men have. Magazines like Black Belt Magazine simply print any ad, full of any text. Most martial magazines will print a companion article with a full-page ad contract, commitment.
    The texts of both are unchecked for facts. This leads to massive confusion and fraudulent loses by consumers. Magazine editors, like Robert Young of Black Belt should show some responsibility and care when they accept ads and features. It is clear they have caused great grief and damage upon their readers.
    Editors – what did they know and when did they know it? When, as an industry, will we say "enough is enough?"  - http://www.fakeselfdefenseinstructors.com/

Was Young punked out by Wagner?

Robert Young writes...

"...he (Wagner) always credits me with having “discovered” him. Truth is, neither I nor Black Belt is responsible for Wagner’s rise to prominence in the self-defense world. He did it all himself. We just hitched a ride. OK, OK. Maybe we bought him a couple of tanks of gas."  -Robert Young

I personally believe that Robert Young was conned by Jim Wagner. Young has no knowledge of the military or policing and would believe a written resume with no checking. This is just my opinion and I could be wrong. But "NOT Responsible" for Jim Wagner's rise? How about years and years of free ads? Nobody would know or care to know Jim Wagner without Young and Black Belt. Nobody. Young did more than buy Wagner a few gallons of gas. Young bought Wagner a "new car," free tolls and years of free advertising. All these related ads were full of Wagner mythology, lies, exaggerations, and the articles, were often half-baked information.

Finally in 2010, thanks to two years of exposes -mostly by Robb Hamic of the aforementioned Fake Self Defense Instructors.com,, and discoveries by Bullshido, Robert Young and Black Belt finally dropped the Jim Wagner column. But they still have stock of old Wagner DVDs and will still run ads to sell them. AND! These ads still have all this false Wagner background in them! When will Robert Young and Black Belt really clean up their act completely?

Hock

[Hock]

WR Mann just blindly supported Jim Wagner, "Commando" Moni Aizik and the claims of numerous others in Mann's ground-breaking internet, "real martial arts" magazine years back. It seems he just regurgitated some Wagner press releases about being on a SWAT team, being the founding father of reality fighting, etc, etc....

Mann now claims he couldn't fact check everything back then. He said;

"I have always been extremely careful with all the stories, however I can’t check every fact; I have never had a reason to! For all stories on the site, the proviso has always been that my subjects are solely responsible for their own content. In addition, before I post an article I always send the completed story to my subject for approval, in this case to Moni Aizik, which he approved. If he hadn’t approved of the article, then I wouldn’t have published it!"

Mann, once certified by Wagner years ago, has now pretty much shed himself of Wagner completely, diplomatically. Yet, on his newer webpage Mann still has one lone vestige of Jim Wagner's name left - a mention - in an old article not by or about Wagner! It is an old article by HSS International, Chris Jacques and Chris mentions Jim Wagner. With photos. Jacques now openly denounces Wagner as a fraud and a con. I am quite sure Chris would demand that article to be removed from Mann's webpage if he knew about it. Chris has on other webpages. (Funny though, in the article about Chris there is even an HSS photo of Chris at GSG9 in Germany, when Wagner would like the world to believe that Wagner alone, not HSS, taught there.)

Good for Jimmy's con.
Bad for Mann, a used pawn in consumer fraud.
Mann was punked out by Wagner and Moni

This type of publishing is responsible for widespread fraud and many readers were mislead and lost money.

Hock
(I also think that Mann was conned by Wagner. Once you've conned your way into Black Belt? What's Mann to suspect? This is how the house of cards is built on a house of cards, atop a house of cards)

[SIGnoramus]

Well, Hock, no more Black Belt covers for you!     Damn, and I just got a year's subscription, too!

[JimH]

Young is culpable as he has seen the how and why of Wagners moves from one job to another.
Young knew that Wagner was moving to these jobs to develop a background to write and sell around.
Young has known for several years ,just from what has been posted on this forum about the questions about Wagner's BS Bio,and still he pushed the product known as Wagner.
As long as the con was working money was coming in and that is the bottom line.

With Mann,I believe he came to know Wagner through Black Belt and he contacted him.
Mann has a diverse background of Traditional Training and Reality Training and he is/was always looking for more to improve his knowledge and possibly add to his teachings.
Mann has his Asian arts,he has studied with Kelly McCann at the Crucible,he studied with Thorton,Dimitri,WWII combatives and many other arts and systems.
He was fooled by Wagner,as there was NO Info on Wagner or the ability to find what has been found in the last few years.

Mann liked Wagners Basic Approach and became an Instructor under Wagner the same time I did,at the first Reality Based Instructor course in NY.

Wagner put Mann in touch with Aizik and Nardia.
(Mann brought Wagner and Aizik to NY to do their seminars and Cerification programs as Mann had his connection at the Fight House)

Again No way to check these guys out in those days.
Those days wer not that long ago ,but it is long as far as what can be done now in searching as compared to a few short years ago.
(hind sight is a wonderful thing)

We,(Mann,myself and many others like Chris Caile of Fightingarts.com,people with years and decades in the arts and other various training), were all drawn to these guys due to the Bio's they had and put up.
The material were usable and doable,nothing to set bells and whistles off.

Shortly after Wagner and Aizik did their things Mann found Floro Knife and he dropped the Wagner and Aizik materials  and he taught/teaches his materials with geat emphasis on Floro Knife/counter Knife.

Mann has been teaching ,traveling,learning and teaching but more and more around Floro materials.

I agree Hock,I  am sure Mann was taken in/Conned by Young,through Black Belt and by Wagner and Aizik BS Persona's .

My opinion

[Hock]

"Well, Hock, no more Black Belt covers for you!"

Wellllll, actually now that Jim Wagless has been booted from the magazine? I might do a little advertising with them again...quarterly? Semi-yearly? But I would be fall-down, shocked if I came under a remote consideration for anything from them.

I really have to commend a now "savvy-er" Young for picking Kelly McCann as Wagless replacement. McCann is former Marine Major and like..anti matter...to a chump like Jim Wagless. Kelly once wrote very regularly as aka "Jim Grover" and has proven he is capable of producing a regular column. This writing consistency and ability is big problem for many people. Smart people are often incapable of writing with any regularity. Writing is a separate skill aside from teaching and aside form being a certified, bad-ass. And Young also made a very good business desicion with McCann by cementing a relationship with a bigger, money advertiser Paladin to boot. Smart move. Win-win.

But since Jimbo Wagless is gone? I might do a little business with them. They still get thumbed through at the bookstores...

Hock