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[Bryant]

I have been researching less than lethal control and neutralization tactics. Things such as joint locks, pain compliance, immobilzations, etc. My question is, are pain points effective against a determined aggressive adversary or does anger and adrenaline nullify the effect of pain point application?

here is a link to a pain point video by Robert Bussey (Ninjutsu)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1367080715954245759#

[Canuk]

in my experience pain points don't work well on aggressive or focused individuals. It certainly leaves alot to be desired in terms of effectiveness when dealing with EDP or dope heads. I use it mostly to gain compliance from the passive to active resistance range

[JimH]

Pressure Points and Pain Compliance WILL NOT work against most people and WILL NOT work against someone who is intoxicated /Medicated or with intent ,rage, aggression and adrenaline ,this is not even adding in the factor layers of clothing play in the mix .

I was at a martial arts event at the Tropicana Hotel in Atlantic City a few years ago.
The CDT crew was there,did their demo ,ran their booth and showed the Greatness of Pain Compliance and Control,on their crew of attackers, and told how it is used by Police,Security,Bouncers,the Government and how it works on everyone.

Well Sunday morning after the Friday and Saturday event I was checking out,as were members of the CDT crew with their CDT Tee Shirts on and in the check out area comes an intoxicated EDP.He starts screaming and yelling so hotel security tries to get him,he fights them off.CDT crew sees an opportunity for free publicity and they volunteer to help,hotel security says OK.
Three or four of them move in on the guy and he fights back.They get their hands on him and grab him in their "Pain Compliance" holds and he fights them off.After several tries the hotel security told them to back off.A couple Atlantic City Police arrived,as did an ambulance and a stretcher.The Police just rushed the guy,got him to the floor,pinned him,cuffed him and threw him on the stretcher and he was gone.

All the BS of the CDT Pain Compliance and all the demonstrations of its use and it was a FALURE,seen first hand.

Most ways to subdue and control /gain compliance come after softening the opponent with strikes.

[Canuk]

I have used pain compliance many hundreds of times over the course of 20 years and have found it to be a very effective tool that works. It works when it’s the right tool for the job. As I stated earlier not effective against EDP or dope heads, which seems to be the situation the CDT people found themselves in. They were using a screwdriver when a hammer was called for. They are a victim of faulty thinking, they have been brainwashed into thinking that CDT will suit all your needs all the time.

To say that pain compliance will not work is incorrect as it will work on a percentage of people out there, not on everyone and not all the time. It wasn’t supposed to work on all people all the time and it’s only the snake oil people saying other wise. It’s a tool for my tool box sometimes I need to use a screwdriver before I use a hammer, They are both in the box and can both be used on the same job.   

[Webby]

Pain Compliance doe's work ! but you have to define what work is !

If you mean a drunk escorted out of a pub with his arm up his back a wrist lock ' on '. The answer is yes, that work's, for awhile ! He's going to struggle you're going to get sweaty ( i.e slippery hand's ), you will have to let him go at some point, what then.

If you work in a team as I did and the people your restraining are dealt with one at a time it works. It is not a solution : restrant, pain compliance is a quick fix.

I've been restrainted and felt major pain, as part of the training, but it's amazing what you can get used to. If you crank it on all the time the area ( wrists and arms especially ) they tend to go numb.

If you use nonstop pain compliance and C&R you run the risk of killing the person. I've been to funeral's as a result of people being ' heavy handed '.

If you don't know the risk's and your not trained don't try to do it.

Webby...   

[Bryant]

I may have an opportunity to teach some security professionals and I want to give them a full range of options from lethal to nonlethal. I like the tool box analogy, I don't want them to try to fix everything with a hammer...

-B.

[whitewolf]

The various responses shows that pain points works some times and sometimes does not-depends on the person applying the hold and the person it is put on-
These type tatics should be practised over and over with the opponent resisting somewhat so that one can see how to apply it.
WW

[JimH]

quote JimH
"Pressure Points and Pain Compliance WILL NOT work against most people and WILL NOT work against someone who is intoxicated /Medicated or with intent ,rage, aggression and adrenaline ,this is not even adding in the factor layers of clothing play in the mix ."

My post and point are clear.
Pain compliance and pressure point tactics WILL NOT work against MOST People.
Especially those jacked up on drugs ,who are violent,who have intent to do harm and who have adrenaline flowing to the point where drugs and aggression block out the pain.

Will Pain compliance work on drunken Uncle Harry at the party?
Yes.
If Harry is Not Violent,but just annoying.

Will pain compliance work on a jacked up weight lifter who has just done some coke and wants to throw a guy through a window ?
I doubt it.

As soon as we say that Pain Compliance WILL WORK ON A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE of people,how do we tell what percentage it will work on ?
Do we find out after we try to apply a lock ,or a Lat Grab Pinch and twist and it does not work and we are in an all out fight,perhaps alone before back up,if any ?

Sure ways to make pain compliance work,(Locks,Holds and Pins),you must surprise the person,soften the opponent,or out number that person with overwhelming numbers that allow the perp to be swarmed and controlled.

A taser is the ultimate pain compliance till you come acoss a guy like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqZP2HyudEM

softening helps make pain compliance work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GjSHxAD2iY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21CUmU01Nv8&feature=related

Pain compliance and pressure point control ARE Options in dealing with possible perps,but do not count on them  as a primary way to gain control,teach to have a back up plan based on strikes to soften all the way to lethal.

People might not always need a hammer ,but if the nut is tough and does not willingly turn as directed then a Hammer is what is needed.
Sorry but I bet for most the Hammer is the most used tool in the tool box.

[Canuk]

Yes Jim YOU have made it clear that pain compliance doesn’t work for YOU
After twenty years as a LEO I am fairly able to tell who pain compliance will or will not work on, in fact I could do that prior to LE.
Unless you are blind or thick, it isn’t hard to see who’s tweaking from withdrawals, who’s on the monster roids or in a blind rage. Circumstance dictates response. Understanding the threat dictates the response. At 5’10 I would be stupid to attempt a pain compliance tactic on a 6’5 240 pound freak. That’s just plain old fashioned sense.
I have already said that they are not likely to work on certain populations, so then you don’t use pain compliance on those populations. Pretty simple really.
I would also suggest that unless you have fought most people then you don’t know how most people will react. Access the situation, make a plan and then act on the plan, keep it fluid 
Not every situation you encounter demands an extreme response

[Bryant]

Good points JimH!, it's a difficult balance when you have to think about liability (police, military, security professionals) but I would rather have a student be alive and worry about it than dead and not. I have been teaching open handed "sticky" strikes to sensitive areas to get control, followed up with joint locks and immobilization techniques. Simple stuff like the hammer lock, Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo. Nothing fancy.

-B.

[JimH]

I have studied Pain compliance,Pain Control,application of locks for over 20 years and have been helping to teach it for over 10 years.

I applaud those who can discern a situation and immediately know how it will turn.

So I guess if a suspect is approached and they seem to comply,they will rifght ?
They will not change their mind and change their attitude when the relization of what is happening sets in and they then will not resist and fight.

One does not have to be big and strong to prevent a single officer,(which is what many departments have responding to calls),to resist being put into a pain compliance technique and to fight back.
(look at the last two clips I posted in my last post)

I am not saying that a perp must be beat to near death to get compliance.
Softening an opponent can be just as simple as a kick behind the knee and driving the leg to the ground to prevent the person from being standing up with all tools and movement able to be used against an officer. How about a strike into the elbow joint to disrupt perpas balance,drive them down and allow their arm to be bent more easily for a hammer lock.

example:
Look at the following clip,Police application of an arm bar.
If you think that is going to work against even a slightly resisting person you are wrong.
My point is make the elbow roll described into a strike,softening technique,and kick the back of the perps closest knee and drive them down,which is where the arm bar for restraint will go.
Help yourself rather than fight any resistance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LasqTYluUo

When training these techniques or moves do it and teach it,then have students resist a little to a lot and see if they need to be big,strong,intox or not to put up a good fight.

Every person and every situation is different,nothing is EVER the same.

Again,pain compliance is a great tool and works AT TIMES when the perp/opponent is compliant.(It does not work  and or is not usable MOST Times)
When a person is not as compliant then there are things to do to soften them to get the control,if they go wild and or resist to the point the officer/s can not get control then more softening is required.

[Canuk]

example:
Look at the following clip,Police application of an arm bar.
If you think that is going to work against even a slightly resisting person you are wrong.
My point is make the elbow roll described into a strike,softening technique,and kick the back of the perps closest knee and drive them down,which is where the arm bar for restraint will go.
Help yourself rather than fight any resistance.

and that is excatly what i do, I roll the arm bar strike the tricep hard and sometimes often either knife hand or hammer fist, kick out the knee and drive them into a prone position. Its fast and fluid (sometimes)

[whitewolf]

Bryant-i just watched the Rober Bussey pressure point vidio-there are some good areas to atack in that vidio= reolizing that some attacks will not work this vidio gives one some ideas to work with- i like the attacks to points on the side of the jaw/neck area- thanks  WW

[Dawg]

People might not always need a hammer ,but if the nut is tough and does not willingly turn as directed then a Hammer is what is needed.
Sorry but I bet for most the Hammer is the most used tool in the tool box.

Yep! It's right there in the top of my toolbox; my favorite and most reliable tool. I love my hammer and it loves me!

Not every situation you encounter demands an extreme response

But I'm an extreme kind of guy! However, I agree, excessive use of the hammer when a pair of tweezers could have been used instead could result in some unwelcome legal or liability problems.

"Nothing works all of the time, most stuff works some of the time" (I'm pretty sure I'm quoting the Big Kahuna here). I like to have options, so I train a variety of material.

Bryant,
I've always enjoyed working the control/pain compliance material, especially when you're doing the "flow" type of training you mentioned. As a "door man" and in my Physical Security duties, I was rather limited with how much "hammer" I could legally apply in most situations. It's good to have options. Good luck with your current endeavor!

BTW,
Great comments by all involved; I've enjoyed following this thread immensely.

[whitewolf]

Bryant-at the class today i worked with a deputy sheriff- he thught the points shown were good-i also went to more bussey vidios- lots of good stuff there -
Dawg-i just know you want to hammer the shit out of the bad guy- good thought
WW (ELB) Speed of light