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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • February 07, 2012, 03:37:22 AM
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Author Topic: Crafty needs help  (Read 1420 times)

Crafty

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Crafty needs help
« on: August 14, 2010, 04:28:26 AM »

Im trying to study wrist throw can has anyone got any experience in this technique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB01hhonf8Q
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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 07:09:11 AM »

On the vidio the instructor gave a good demo on how to do the move-
Crafty-look for a good school in your area that instructs in these type moves-
also ask JimH for some pointers-he should have experience as he studies/teaches tactics lke this
WW
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wisdom

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 10:26:23 AM »

Well Hock's Joint lock DVd is the bomb for stuff like this..... and years ago...and probably still he taught a trouble shooting module that taught what to do if the stunt guy lifts his elbow to high or low during the throw.........but I can't remember if that is on the DVD......but probably....it's one of the coolest two disc sets he put out.....really breaks down the stuff joint by joint...
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Clifford Munson

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JimH

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2010, 02:44:52 PM »

I have experience with this lock and throw.
One thing I would like to point out is that you will not ,in most cases of dealing with an untrained street attacker,get them to fly up and over as in the clip.

Crafty,what is the qustion on the technique?
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Crafty

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2010, 03:06:41 PM »

Would you be able to take them to the ground if they came in with a knife attack by controling the hand
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Crafty

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2010, 03:23:32 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MDbu1A2uSI

This one but i would strike the hand first and more on the footwork for evasion but the way he takes his balance away i like akido but i want to mix it with my kali experience and see what i can come up with.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 03:28:01 PM by Crafty »
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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2010, 06:45:47 PM »

So JimH what you are saying is hold the knife hand with your left- strike the back of the knife hand with your right (using back fist knuckles) dislage knife
or-continue twirling  to right go to ground into arm bar situation - and dislage knife-correct? WW
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noload

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2010, 10:24:39 PM »

Would you be able to take them to the ground if they came in with a knife attack by controling the hand

Yes, if they come at you like the guy in the video. I've used the technique during "alive!" (is that trademarked?) training and it was always something that fell into my lap while doing another technique rather than something I set out to do. Often the opportunity happened while the other guy was trying to counter.

The other thing is the way most people perform the technique it has the intentional flaw of allowing the uki to roll with it to give him a chance to get up and do it again. If possible you'd want to make sure that he'd at least land badly rather then roll and preferably be injured by the time you move to the finishing technique. Something as simple as stepping on the guys foot or locking his leg can be enough to help with a bad landing, or his elbow like in this video. There are a lot of variations on these themes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXdDuZHN7os&feature=related

These are both simpler and quicker than the Aikido versions.
A basic straight wrist lock take down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA_rFAs_Q-E&feature=related

A basic turning wrist lock take down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6QpzOrj0-g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMM6IpfbgC0&feature=related


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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 04:45:08 AM »

Noload thanks for showing variations-males sense what you said- WW
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Webby

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 05:55:10 AM »

Try the books : Aikido and The Dynamic Sphere under the section on projections and for a more brutal version have a look at Toshishiro Obata's book Samurai Aikijutsu.

I've always gone for the one handed, my left hand on his right wrist, quick twist and push down. It's worked most times I've used it, but these where low level use of force situations not life and death. The action was moving pretty slow. I think all these techniques work best if the opponent has been weaken first.

Enjoy your training practice makes perfect !

Best of Luck..Webby     
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noload

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2010, 05:02:25 PM »

No problem WW. I've found that some of the Chinese style guys look at joint locks as a part of the art and teach and use them along with strikes, low line attacks and leg attacks which fits pretty well with what I'm training. The Japanese arts seem to focus more on a few specific parts rather than a whole system. So for Aikido you get excellent lessons and training in movement but it's missing certain things like striking and decent attacks. IMO that is.
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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2010, 07:48:12 PM »

Noload- do you find it is hard to do a wrist  lock when the( opponent trainee) is going almost full speed? It appears that with a opponent using both hands it is hard to grab at one wrist?? WW
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Crafty

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2010, 11:40:12 PM »

Thankyou

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JimH

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 08:37:54 AM »

The Chin na shows the close up method of doing the wrist lock properly but I do not like their lack of movement or the large space they keep between them when doing the lock to throw.

The first clip,top,showed the step in at angle and top slide to grab,notice the instructor is able to push the attackers arm forward and cause an overextension of the strike and an immediate turn back to itself and the lock / take down.
Too much space here also.

The second clip shows an arm /hand slide underneath the incoming strike /knife.
You have to roll over to the top to make the grab /push and rotate back to lock / throw.
If I were to use the arm/hand slide control from underneath,I would slide under to control direction as shown  but then continue the slide under and wrap my hand around the arm getting an elbow lock /break.

I would go with the top one,as it affords more control to redirect,push forward and bring back to lock and throw.
Good for strike and knife attacks.
You must work close and always close into the attacker.

WW explanation is on track.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 08:39:47 AM by JimH »
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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 06:05:36 PM »

JimH-i agree of the vidios the first one looks more sound to do-
also the closer the better  as outside his zone and trying to stop a knife seems harder to accomplish especially in a fast stab-i personally have been shown get the knife hand and other strikes at eyes in a clawing swipe or repeated very hard punches then attempt to dislage the wpn- WW
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