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[Hock]

Make it a whiskey 

Hock

[whitewolf]

its a deal-WW

[robbhamic]

It is important to understand if a person is certified as an instructor with a reputable and legitimate organization.  There are a number of krav maga organizations our there and everyone will have to be the judge of what is best for them.  I do know that the IKMA is the original and Imi Lichtenfeld's organization and there is a huge difference in this training and that of the other Israeli or the one American organization.  To me the question was authenticity and linage.  I have been scammed by Karanek and that scumbag Moni Aizik.  I wanted to real thing and I took the time to do my homework and the blog aired out what I knew and discovered. 

I went to Israel and learned a lot more.  I guess the motto is that it is hard for us American's to have an understanding of how it really goes over there and how all of this came about.  What I can tell you is that there is some stuff that has and does go on that does not pass the smell test.

1. Eyal, formerly of the IKMF.  Definitely real, received rank through the 7th dan documented.  I personally saw bounced checks that he wrote to himself from IKMA checking account while he was in the US claiming to be the boss of the system. His website still says that basically and he has been fired from the IMMF since May 2010 by it's Board of Directors.  He starts Krav Maga Global and now does tours to Israel for people to get instructorship.  There is the thing...  There is a saying in Israel.  "The beach is free."  Eyal plans these weeklong excursions, sight seeing trips and busses these people around to the beach to train.  He has NO SCHOOL IN ISRAEL.  They train in Netanya like me.  I talked to a number of people who were there to train the last time I was in Netanya.  They stayed at the hotel I was at.  The people I spoke to were disappointed that they weren't training more and wanted to be pushed harder.  Eyal takes kick backs from the hotel for each night's stay from each person he brings and the people told me that everyone gets a diploma to be an instructor.  He gets cash coming and going for everything.  That is just bullshit in my opinion.

An new blog on Eyal..  http://www.fakeselfdefenseinstructors.com/2010/08/the-lineage-of-krav-maga-part-1.html

2. After doing this internet forum thing for a long time I am suspicious of anyone who claims to be in the Israeli Defense Forces that has good written English and only uses a first name.  All Israeli Prime Ministers have done covert work, some have killed people, all has published books and told their stories.  If a person comes onto a site and talks about his service or opinions why not just use your real name?  Screen names are one thing but the cloak and dagger shit needs to go.  As to the IKMA curriculum not being taught to the IDF or by its soldiers- that is just untrue.  I have a friend, Or Hanya,  who works as a krav maga instructor in a special IDF unit.  He also teaches some of the Israeli night classes at the IKMA.  He is a bad ass fighter and I have seen him with his IDF uniform.  Krav Maga is complete fighting and my understanding is that some units in Israel get special training on an as needed basis.  It is not like there is some sort of black ops thing going on where people learn super secret killing skills and then it turns into IDF krav maga.  Fighting hasn't changed a whole lot since it was thought up.  Use your weapons to create as much damage as possible.  Take care of your advisory in one way or another.

3. People can say what they want about this instructor or that one. Imi died in 1998.  All changes to Krav Maga after that were made by someone else.  Imi stated that he trusted only Haim Gidon to make future updates and changes to krav maga.  There is a recorded video that I will publish on my blog this week.  Are any of these updates safe and tactically appropriate is the question?  What real life and death experience does the person have that made any updates?  Keep in mind that a dozen or so large systems out there exist that have changed things.  Some are just crazy- Moni for instance is a nut case.  Some of his stuff is so tactically inept, it would be more efficient for the CKM practitioner to cut his own throat rather than try a tactic against an attacker.  Other changes are less easy to spot but just as dangerous.  Darren Levine was awarded (I think a 4th dan) through IMI.  I think he got a 6th through Eyal.  Now he has who knows what # dan.. I know he is an American and an attorney.  A question that I have is what business does he have making changes to an Israeli fighting method involving knives and guns.  Combat and self defense is not theoretical.  What looks good on DVD might not work when someone wants to really kill you.

After all of this I can say that the IKMA curriculum is taught to the military.  David Kahn has taught many times to the US Marines, US Army and US Air Force  Federal and state agencies such as: FBI, Secret Service, Marshals and I don't know how many others.  His walls are covered with more letters of appreciation and articles in bug magazines than I have ever seen in any club.

One gentleman mentioned learning from IKMA Instructor and 2nd Dan Black Belt Krzysztof Sawicki in Poland.  He and many of his instructors teach to regular units and special forces units in Poland.  He is an amazing fighter and anyone able to train with him and his instructors had better bring their A game.  These guys are tough.

Anyway, sorry for the long post.  Thank you for researching the issues.  I appreciate all of the help on my blog and information that you guys have sent to me.  You all have a good friend in Hock.  There aren't many guys like him out there anymore.

Respectfully,

Robb Hamic

[Elad]

Hell all, Rob,

Very nice of you to start learning real krav maga. How long have you been involved in real krav maga for?

Now you are the expert on what is real krav maga and what is taught in the army? Very nice for you.

No need for you to inform every one about where and how an Israeli soldiers id can be revealed. I already spent enough time helping my friends get the truth out on moni aizik and made all these explanations on several forum, even this 1.

Yes, you are right once you are no longer in service you have no need to hide your face or name. Maybe go back read all my posts here and evaluate the situation again.

Yes you are very correct about that there is difference between all the krav systems and organizations. And you are more wrong about what you think is no difference between IKMA and IDF krav maga! Yes there are similarities in almost all krav maga systems, because they all originate from the same source. When Imi left the army in 1968, he took his krav maga system with him to the civilian world, and krav maga in the army stayed in the army. While all krav maga organizations went there own direction, and changes based on the head instructor experience, krav maga in the army stayed under one control and one direction, and evolve based on what was experienced in the field. NOT LIKE ANY OTHER SYSTEM or ORGANIZATION.

Since you are very new to the world of krav maga, you don’t realize that EVERY SINGLE krav maga organization in Israel has students/instructors that are serving in the IDF an dmany are krav maga instructors. Many krav maga instructors also come from different martial arts background, like karate, denis Hisardut, ha shita, even kung fu! None of them are allowed to teach what they know, they only can teach the IDF curriculum of Krav Maga.

Again, you don’t know, so I will help you understand. Yes there is special training that happens for special units. Majority of the units get the same training, specialty units get training that is designed for what they need to do in the field. Example, is duvdevan counter terror unit for the west bank. They have one team that is uniform work for direct action and one team that is all undercover for intelligence gathering, and special close contact work. Both get the same krav maga training and then get specialized krav maga training for their missions that is designed specific to them at the counter terror school. In the counter terror school there is even instructors assigned to each team that only teach them what their unit needs to know. So 2 teams from duvdevan go to the school, and both get different krav maga training for their specialty.

But ofcourse, not your master or your instructor friend can help you understand that, because none of them have anything to do with IDF/special forces counter terror school krav maga.

This is a part of e-mail I get from a good friend of mine that is good friends with the man who wriote it. I will not say his name yet, until he gets back to me with permission. He was the chief Krav Maga instructor for the IDF after Eli Avikzar. Eli became the chief appointed by Imi after Imi left, Eli was the commander of the IDF Krav Maga from 1968 to 1981.

“Eli and Imi had years of experience in training IDF Krav Maga, while Eyal and haim Gidon did not. The expectation from a civilian instructor was the same expectation from a civilian Karate Black belt- to train individuals techniques in the dojo system. Over the years the became more lax. How else would you justify taking 21 hours of military curriculum and spreading it over the Dojo System? How does an owner of a Dojo is supposed to make a living? Even Haim that was looking to make a living off his Dojo noticed that in a Dojo, people come to exercise and get action. He felt that they sweat more stay longer and have less injuries with less supervision if he reverts to Muay Thai, Wrestling, BJJ and Arnis. It also makes it easier for low intelligence people to teach and helps to cross the language barriers. Teach by sweat! It is good to a point until someone that was trained intensively 21 hours in depth comes to the scene, or to the point that you encountered a Personally I am very picky about everything and I do see a difference between civilian and IDF Krav Maga. At times some people think that IDF Krav Maga is the few hours that were taught to some of the units. But IDF Krav Maga is a complete system where not all of it taught to the unit operators. They were just given quick solutions to common problems by Krav Maga instructors. So I think in a way it is unfortunate that Civilian Krav Maga turned into a Mc Dojo System, and it is also unfortunate that the name Krav Maga was used by those that had no clue what it was - the importers and it is a misfortune that some of the people that knew IDF Krav Maga used the name Krav Maga teaching Civilian Krav Maga, and it is unfortunate that some of the civilian krav maga instructors used the name Krav Maga to teach less Krav Maga in a form of Mixed Martial Arts.
i think that Imi believed that the IDF Krav Maga should be more secret than the Civilian to keep the advantage, and Eli Avikzar followed him to a point. Eli kept is secret from the students he did not like as much and gave more to those he did”

Oh yes, I know what you will say, he is not real because he has no name and has good English!  

Almost every Israeli has great English. Many like me, learn in university if not in Israel than in US. I still work for the Israeli ministry of defense and back and forth from Israel and US. 

Canuk ask what the difference between IDF Krav Maga and civilian organization systems like IKMA.

There is a lot to write, but a few, Rob talkd about ‘Retzef’ continuous fighting combinations. We do not learn to fight in the army, fighting is skill based, and takes too long. We teach to get close, control, and finish. No retzef. Retzef you will brake your hand after a few punches, you will get tired very quickly and you will already start the ‘fight’ tired because you are in the field on a mission, also you have 50 kilo of equipment and weapon, you think you will be able to do retzef??

Also, you can see in all IKMA video even on youtube, everything they do is finishing with grabs, joint locking, or going to the ground with the attacker, also they do grappling. We never teach or use joint locking in the IDf Krav Maga, they do not work in real contacts with attacker that is trying to kill you. We NEVER teach to go to the ground! Almost everyone I believe on this forum is experienced enough to understand why even in regular street situation! We do not do MMA grappling, IDF krav maga is krav maga also on the ground. Almost everthing  IKMA does will never work for real operational situation.

Look at IKMA, IKMF, etc, and look at Itai Gil, Nir Maman, or Amit Porat from IsraelMilitary Krav Maga. These people are real soldiers, Itai and Nir from Top Counter Terror units, and they are all krav Maga instructors in the IDF. Why is it then if there is no difference from IKMA civilian systems and IDF Krav, why do these real IDF instructors all do the same format, techniques as each other, and IKMA if military curriculum do things very different Rob?

Rob, looks like you have been workin hard to expose ‘frauds’ in the Israeli instructors. Now you are going to do what all those frauds did and tell the world what is not true to promote your business and IKMA?

Elad

[robbhamic]

I have a good idea of who this is and I don't know why you persist in playing games with the fake name.  IF you have some something to say, say it in your own name that your mother gave you.  If you are promoting yourself under a fake name then that is just not right. 

You are right, I am not Israeli and I have never been in the IDF or the Counter-Terror unit.  I have set out to understand the truth and set aside the bullshit for my benefit and others.  I have made it my business to know and research and I have done it all in my own name from day 1.  I have always stood on my word.  Maybe I don't have all of the answers but I tell the truth.

People want to learn about solutions that can help them.  They want to learn how they have been deceived.  The people who mainly visit this forum and others are not stone cold killers who are seeking some ultra military style (correct me if I am wrong guys) that allows you to kill your opponent with one fail swoop.  Civilians can go to jail for that or even military or defense contractors, as we learned in Iraq. 

You said that the IKMA curriculum wasn't taught in the IDF and I gave you the real name of a man I really knew who teaches it, in good form.  What have you given except hyperbole and innuendo?  The same old cloak and dagger- I would tell you my name but i would have to kill you kind of crap.  Most Israeli's that I meet have much better English than my Hebrew but their written English is poor.  You sound like a American or a Canadian.  "Hell all?"  That is not Israeli.

The good friend of yours, whom you didn't release his name is well known to me and I also have been receiving e-mails from him.  You absolutely gave away his identity by stating his title and dates of service and you did it to look like you had inside knowledge.  Boaz Aviram is a great guy and it has always been his position that krav maga should be kept in the military.  That is no secret, thanks for reporting old news.  He copied me on the exact same e-mail you cut and pasted day before yesterday.

If nothing else, I am loyal and I stand on my word.  I do represent and Instruct for the Israeli Krav Maga, Grand Master Haim Gidon.  I don't play both sides of anything and I don't mince words.  I know I don't know everything but I certainly don't pretend that I do and I don't give fake names on forums to throw people off of the truth.

You say that the thing you endorse is the military method of krav maga.  How does that matter to the normal people who are not in the military?  Even law enforcement, corrections, national guard, security, executive protection, women, men, elderly, kids, handicapped people don't operate by the same auspices of military doctrine.  They have different rules of engagement, reasonable man's rule's, use of force applications and restrictions and then they differ from city, to state to country.  What would happen to a person in the United Kingdom who used a military application of force to break a man's neck?  How about a police officer who had programmed in incapacitation to his muscle memory and in the heat of restraining a suspect hurt him?  What then?  He/ She loses their job and maybe gets prosecuted criminally?

What about responsible and ethical teaching of curriculum?  Sure, it sounds really bad ass to say that you learn what is taught to the Israeli Defense Forces but what does that really mean anyway?  Mike Manarek, Moni Aizik, Avi ...... and too many others have said the same things.

You mentioned Itay Gil.  He teaches primarily to civilians.  What about Albert Timen, who is a fantastic person- he teaches primarily to people.  These are former special unit/ special forces people from Israel who now teach civilian combatitives. 

You say that they don't teach fighting in the Israeli Army because it takes too long?  Wow. I bet a lot of people would disagree.  This whole conversation is silly because it serves no purpose.  It is about you and your fundamental disagreement of anything except your opinion.  Go on thinking what you think, do what you do and try to be happy in life.  Be safe and try to gain some perspective in life. 

If you still disagree, and based on some of my detractors statements in the past, I will be in Netanya in November or December, training at the Israeli Krav Maga Association- 21 Ben Zion st. Netanya Israel.  Come and fight me.  You may win or lose.  If you win, there will be a line of my friends with more experience and time in the game that will fight you.  That is the thing about Authentic Israeli Krav Maga.  It is about fighting not theory or fine motor skill techniques.  It prevails in fights (and yes people really fight in the streets, battleground or as attackers).  That is also the thing about having a team behind you.  They ar emy brothers.

I train.  I fight.  I bleed and sweat.  i get better daily.  I work hard and I don't too wrapped up in losing a fight because there is always the next one.  If it is for real and my life or my family or friend's life is on the line then my fighting will never be fair.  It will be self defense.  Somebody does grappling- i do shooting.  That is authentic Israeli Krav Maga- no rules.

http://kravmagaisraeli1.ybay.co.il/data/About_us/About_us.asp?mCatID=1005

[SileyEric]

This thread is interesting, and I'm glad Rob linked it from his site.  Just a few follow-up points:

1) Krav Maga Worldwide business model - Hock, I'm not sure what the model was 10 years ago, before I was a school owner.  I spoke with them 3 months ago, and what they offered was very reasonable.  It was a flat monthly franchise fee, equivalent to the mat fees of about 4 of my students per month.  It's reasonable, if nothing more than for the click-through's I'd get on my web site, being listed on their web site.  There is no tithing, and instructor training is included in the flat fee.  They are growing again, and I did not see any red flags.  I haven't taken them up on the offer, because I'm focused in building a kids' program during back to school, but will come back to it later.

I think that over 10 years ago, many school owners took in the marketing, saw how good the Krav Maga material was, and visited the national training center.  2000 adult members, in about 5,500 square feet.  Who wouldn't want this?  Not every market is LA (clearly), and you have to have a deep instructor bench, both self-defense and fitness, to pull this off.  It also helps to have many people from Hollywood training at your gym...

2) IDF vs. "civilian" Krav Maga - Rob finds a good deal of documentation, which is part of which makes his site so compelling.  One of our instructors in Kansas City is an IDF veteran, of the Givati Brigade.  He served in the late 80's.  He described his training to me, and they received the IDF basic course.  He has learned and practiced much more Krav Maga in the U.S. than he ever did in Israel.  He went to Los Angeles and went through the same instructor course as the rest of us.  He is a tough guy, a good guy, and a very good instructor, but there aren't any secret, different, or hidden Krav Maga techniques he was taught in the IDF.

I'm sure he had to spend a great deal more time learning how to operate his tank, and patrol Gaza, than Krav Maga.  I am not 100% certain, but I am 99.9% certain that we have the Krav Maga we need to teach civilians to be safe, without any secrets.  I have no doubt there are specialized tactics and techniques the IDF Special Forces use.  I'm 99.9% certain they don't rely on hand-hand fighting, and wouldn't help a civilian make it to her care safely at night.

3) Training in Israel - I like the idea of anyone who can afford traveling to Israel to do so.  Spending your vacation and tourist dollars in the country of our only true friend in the Middle East, the only true democracy, and the Holy Land is a very good thing.  See the sites, train Krav Maga if you wish...but, you do not have to go to Israel to find good Krav Maga.  Start in the U.S.  If you love Krav Maga, add it to the list of things you want to do while you're in Israel.  I'd welcome the chance to train in Imi's mat...but I have a life here, and it's a long, long way to go.  I'd love the chance to train with the IKMA in Netanya.  I have no doubt I'd learn things.  When I see the picture of Darren Levine with Imi, wearing the black belt Imi gave him (Imi's own belt), it's clear to me what he wanted for the U.S...

[Canuk]

I like your post SileyEric, espically the second to last paragrapgh!.

[Hock]

It's all very mystifying to me.

I have never been mystified by any Krav, no matter where it came from. But I am not mystified by any martial arts either. I will always believe that the truth lies behind all the trappings, uniforms, whose-who. etc.  I am only interested in the pure essence of combat VOID of all trappings. And I believe strongly in the freedom to evolve. In some systems this is a political no-no. Good things are in all good systems.

Seeing Levine's picture beside Imi's...means little to me. I am sure Imi was a cool guy but he is a cool guy on list of thousands of cool guys. There are thousands of cooler guys and thousands less cooler guys. I just don't get all the hubub. The attraction?

I understand that people like to see integrity in a system and a chain of command so to speak, if you LOVE what it all is and means. And nobody likes a scammer and liar. I know lots of guys photo-ed with Bruce Lee that were nimrods.

But...what do I know!? This "name-game" is a business mistake/failure on my part. I know this. I have no flashy shingle to hang out. I guess the world operates by "click-thru-s." I wonder how many click-thrus actually show up and pay in the current flood of Krav pages. What was once a business card is now a webpage up for all to see and to massively confuse the world.

Anyhow, on the Levine/Krav Maga World Wide (KMWW) business model years ago it cost about $10,000 for 2 people to fly to LA and become Levine-certified. 4 days? 3 days? Maybe even 2 days! $10,000. Not including airfare or hotel (could you fly to Israel for that?) Many, many MA schools fell for this, virgin to these ideas, thanks also to NAPMA. But, you paid serious monthly dues and you could NOT promote anyone in Krav. You had to host a seminar, pay for like two guys to come in and teach and test. You had to buy the shirts and pants and assorted other stuff. Had to. All this on the magic promise of scores of new students pouring in.

Then you buy a geographic, longitude and latitude "protection" franchise which guaranteed you all kinds of territory. Thousands more.  UNTIL Karanak/FIGHT came along. Then a few others showed up (I remember the Korean invasion too). FIGHT would open across the street after you spent even more thousands for this Levine Krav Maga territorial protection. Anyway, all this drove Levine and KMWW into the ground. It was like a pyramid scam to me! My friends would use their Tae Kwon Do student money to pay the KMWW Krav dues, but were stuck in these Krav contracts. I know guys that shut their schools, moved and changed names to dodge the contract nut they had to pay Mr Levine/KMWW.

THAT is the business model that failed. THAT manipulation and well...pain...he caused the industry is why I would never trust Levine, not that what I think matters anyway. It was a Billy Banks/Thai BO version of Krav anyway, that only did unarmed material. Incomplete and unsound in doctrine. An improvement over many "karate" and TKD virgin systems, sure. But bad doctrine for a comprehensive and complete program.

The model was martial arts business at its blood sucking, worst. Well, I guess it could get worse, somewhere. As they tumbled, new deals were offered to new people who wouldn't stand for the expensive old deals. So new schools payed less money than the older schools were still paying. Ssssshh! Its a secret! Word got around, making the older schools mad. A general sense of fairness never existed from beginning to end. Why should it start now? Survival I guess?

But it is a business mistake to call things what I call them. Generic. Nothing flashy. Not about any cool thing. Kung Fu. Dragon's Lair. Israeli. British WW II. Cool names about something.   That is why one person buys one laundry detergent over another.  

I mean, what would you buy?

    "Oxiclean"  - "Super Tide"
        or
    "Soap Powder"

My problem is I just sell soap powder. No click-thru's on soap powder. "Unarmed Combatives." BORING! Maybe I should try "Oxi-Combatives"

This would be a good discussion on the business section. I wonder what the Levine 2-day instructor course costs now? In 2010? (The start up is where they get you)

Hock
(not that what I think matters for a small hill of generic beans anyway)

[Black Knife]

Krav Maga Worldwide student base is made up of mostly yuppies who want to claim they can fight but in reality they can't. There classes look more like of a Cardio Kickboxing than a fighting art. They hit punching bags and focus mitts but don't even spar hard with each other.

I have sparred with several of these guys that train in this system and one was even an instructor. These guys could not stop me from taking them down. I even told them they can even try and grab my nuts if they could. However they found out the hard way it is not easy trying to reach for something when someone is choking you out and all you are seeing is black.

I have seen the way they train Krav Maga in Israel and it is totally more realistic there than it is in some of these schools in the U.S.

[JimH]

How long did Darren Levine train in KM under Imi ?
LOL
(about as long as it took to write the check and have it cashed)

How long does one need to train in Krav Maga World Wide to open a school and teach ?
4-5 Days

How often do Instructors In Krav Maga World Wide take the next week of training to get the next level ?
Depends on when they can afford it

How many Krav Maga World Wide Instructors Never go further than the first or second level of training ? (green belt level)
Most
(When students ask when will they learn something new,they are asked,are you here for belts/rank or to learn to survive the streets.)

A Black Belt In Krav Maga Worlsd Wide takes what around 4-5 weeks to get ?
Yet when they teach their student must spend 6 months training (approx) for each level,lol.


Most of the class time is spent on Fitness with minimum self defense application.

Wow I want to trust my life to a guy who spent 4-5 days learning a BASIC entry level set of techniques which equals a white to orange belt level,LOL.
These same people with 4-5 days then have the guts to want to train Military and Police,lol.

The whole concept is to get people to open the doors under the Krav Maga World Wide Banner sell the materials,sell the clothes,pay the franchise fee's,and get enough to pay for the next level of learning to keep the Levine machine running.

How many in the Krav Maga World Wide ,including Darren Levine ,served in the IDF in any capacity ?
Not Many
Yet they sell krav Maga IDF as their History,leaving off that they are a civilian version.
LOL

Great Marketing,just like Wagner and Aizik.

There are others teaching Imi's civilian version,legit krav Maga ,such as Haim Zut krav Maga in Israel and His top student Rhon Mizrachi NYC Krav,head of the Haim Zut's US KMF.

Do you want to learn from someone who has put time in learning what they teach,or  from people who teach what they learned in 5 days to try and get enough to attend the next level of COLOR BELT training ?
LOL

[robbhamic]

Very well said Hock and Jim.  Very true in my humble opinion.  If three is no real fighting then there is no risk to learn.  No risk, no fear.  No evolution for real fighting situations.  We could all sit around and talk about how fights happen or what if's all day long but it takes a special person to stand and fight- student or teacher.

That is the whole crux of all of the "reality based martial arts" I have ever seen.  How is it reality when two people agree to practice hard core moves?  How is it reality when two people agree to spar with lots of rules?  The reality is that it is bullshit but they get cool t-shirts and promotional pictures with the likes of Moni Aizik and Mike Kanarek who, after all, are on the cover of Black Belt Magazine.

Did anyone see that horrible Spike TV segment with Kanarek in it recently?  He looks like an old Brice Willis.  He hired a consultant to bring him up to speed on the real tactics of Israeli Specail Forces prior to the show.  I called the fraud department at Discovery Channel as did many others but since they already shot the segment, they decided to air it anyway.  I guess the BS train rolls along. 

Robert Young and Black Belt have some crow to eat after publishing Moni Aizik's open letter to the editor in this month's Black Belt Magazine.  I couldn't believe my eyes but I had to remind myself that they are partners after all, Moni pays $12,000 per month for his advertising.  I had to read it at David Kahn's Israeli Krav Maga school because I canceled my subscription.  I guess Young couldn't believe his eyes when he read our class action lawsuit against that scum bag Moni that was served on him Saturday in one of his seminars.. LOL.  I told him sorry that I ruined his party..

[Hock]

I don't mean to be picking on Levine as a straight-up, evil guy with an evil business. He did know Imi and that is cool, etc... and perhaps he didn't predict/understand the martial arts business and thought he could create an international gravy train of chain schools with a mix of Krav and Billy Bank's Thai Bo - which was popular at the time.

The monopoly possibility exists. look at UFC / MMA for captivating the market place, especially the 17 to 26 demographic young male that once was spread across all kinds of martial businesses from Kung Fu to Silat.  MMA has monopolized this demographic.

Organizing martial/survival rank and instructorships while maintaining a business model that remains successful enough for the parent organization to stay open and working, is a tweeking, evolving challenge. It can be a compromise of doing some good where no good was done before. Doing some education where there was none before.

If Levine can re-work the format into something better for everyone, he should go for it. Anyway, I wonder what these Levine KMWW, 2-day instructor course costs now? In 2010?

Hock

(and I would like to turn the conversation back to the subject of the hot Israeli chicks someone mentioned earlier?)

[ShooterMMA]

@robbhamic
I was reading your blog and like it, cos u fighted for truth. But now when I see what you write about other Israeli KM instructors it makes me wonder are you always right?
Don't make full picture about some peoples just by listening just one side, or one man. Your talk is to much pro IKMA, and there is the problem.
I have been with Shaike, Oscar S.K., I.D., and I don't share your opinion about Eyal for example. There is no completely black or white, somebody could maybe say some bad words about Haim, and then what?

I'm more close to Elads writhing, aldo not completely, cos S.K., I.D. were together with E.Y., so exchange of knowledge was there, and I think Elad should chek a bit more does some instructors have or not military experience.

"If someone is" military, or military instructor, that don't make them automatically a good instructors, it can be oposit (aldo military instructors "could" know better what are the true needs for military)

I think Itay Gil is more JJ guy then KM.

KM military material is created in B8 and adam, so there is the answer what is military KM.

ps. change it (" "), to sound corectly

[SileyEric]

JimH - Thanks for your fair, balanced, and nuanced overview of Krav Maga Worldwide.  At the LA National Training Center, both Sam Sade and Amir Perets are decorated IDF veterans.  When you say "not many," these are the guys who set the standards that the rest of the instructor group strives to attain.

I'm not a representative of KMWW, and they'd probably rather have me shut up than offer my opinion, but the whole point of what Rob was doing and why people come to this part of Hock's forum is trying to get at the truth.  The truth is that my Phase A Krav Maga training was 5 days, averaging over 7 hours per day of hard training, and 1/3 of the class washed out.

Some people weren't in the kind of shape they needed to be in, some weren't ready for the contact, and it was tougher than some expected.  They weren't just "passed" because they paid.  This was my experience throughout training.  I think it's common practice in instructor seminars and seminars in general to build on what people already know and can do, expect them to be in shape, and for them to be spending a good deal of time working the material, on the mat, outside of class.

This is no different than the 2 days I plan to spend training with Hock in September.  If I work hard and show I can perform, he might certify me.  If I can't do it, he won't.  I've never seen a KMWW Black Belt who ONLY put in 4-6 weeks of work.  Every single one of the black belts they have promoted I've trained with was very good, and could fight.

One of the legitimate criticisms of their training system is that many people only did one or two levels of phase training, and never went back for more.  Some people can have a great week of training in a high-energy environment, and then get lazy back home, or aren't particularly good instructors to begin with.  This is a quality control problem that everyone has to manage, and it gets bigger the more people you run through the system. (not to mention the temptation to chase the $$$)

Regarding sparring and the view that Krav Maga Worldwide is a "Yuppie" program.  I look for people of good character who want to train hard, will show up for class, and will pay their mat fees.  There's nothing wrong with getting people into good shape as part of the program.  One of my criticisms of many of the RBSD systems and seminars I've been exposed to is the number of people who want to play tough guy, but aren't in shape to spar a real 3 minute round.  Lots of bellies hanging over camo pants.  Say what you will, but the LA instructors look the part and can fill the mats.

At our school, we have always sparred, and sparred hard.  Sparring is always a mixed bag at seminars and instructor colleges.  Most of the guys are just ok, and there usually a couple of guys who are crazy good - pro boxers, kickboxers, mma fighters, and this also causes problems.  The other guys always say "yeah, but we weren't kicking to the groin, didn't use knives or sticks, or this wasn't a street fight."

Sparring is a great reality check, and in my opinion, it makes you continue getting better - and most importantly, keeps the ego in-check.  Don't assume there isn't hard, good sparring at KMWW schools.  There are quite a few of them, and no doubt some variance.

Hock - The Krav Maga 5-day instructor course is included in the KMWW license fees now, is my understanding.  John Whitman is also running certifications, and is very good.  I think it is $750 for the training if you're not a member of his group.

The possibility for a monopoly doesn't exist, due to the lost lawsuit on the trademark of "Krav Maga" and the logo.  To protect the territory of licensees, they used to be very aggressive in sending "cease and desist" letters to people saying they were teaching Krav Maga, but who were not licensees of Krav Maga Worldwide.  These letters detered some of the parasites, but also unfortunately hit some of the guys with legit training who were not part of the organization that had the trademark.

[Hock]

$750 ain't bad. Imagine when it was $10,000! WOW!

Levine had no choice but to try and protect and file lawsuits to cover the money his people spent on the longitude/latitude franchise plan. What else could he do? And being a lawyer, why not take a shot at it? He had no choice.

One guy I know spent as much as $10,000 to own his global turf and a Karanak FIGHT club opened down the street. Then along came Moni...

Organizing martial/survival rank and instructorships while maintaining a business model that remains successful enough for the parent organization to stay open and working, is a tweeking, evolving challenge. It can be a compromise of doing some good where no good was done before. Doing some education where there was none before. This is a whole subject I have strong opinions on.

I think I will carry that one over to hear...
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,6765.0.html

Hock