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[JimH]

Sorry I am not Bill O'Reilly and the Factor,no need to be fair and balanced.lol.
I give my opinion based on my experiences and those of students who have also attended training with KMWW instructors.

Most of the KMWW Instructors in the US and Canada have never been to Israel nor have they served in the IDF,many have never served in any military for that matter.

The majority of the KMWW  class time is spent on fitness  conditioning over self defense training.
(then again the KM for the military was developed for fitness over H2H anyway,Imi's job was PT Instructor and he taught fitness,gymnastics,boxing and wrestling,No ?)

Conditioning to fight is great,but it can be done outside of the self defense training environment.
Most street conflicts are over in seconds,not minutes ,so conditioning for the long haul is not a requirement,just  a sales perk.(we will get you fit and muscular,same sales pitch as Tiger Schulman schools and others who spend more time on fitness than what they are being paid to teach)

Sparring is done in many sport oriented arts,done under the rules as set by the owner or organization,sadly most products of sparring with high kicks,and strikes to body mass,are exchanges and not finishing techniques and more sadly is many of these people gets their butts handed to them in the street.


Tae Bo  had participants in a Fitness only art,which used martial content as the base with NO sparring and No contact,and Most of those people believed they were better able to handle / take care of themselves in dangerous situations.
At least Billy Blanks was not filling their heads with superman nonsense,they developed that on their own.

I like that KM forces people to learn to fight and continue to fight ,at times against overwhelming odds,not to teach the student that they may prevail in the fight but to develop a fight / warrior mind set in which one must continue until you win or they win,not a new concept in martial training though is it.

I figured sooner or later someone would say that Hock certifies people after seminars.
Does Hock Charge a Franchise fee when he awards his certificates ?
NO

I do not think that Hock charges anywhere near the now reasonable sum (as mentioned with regard to KM),of 750 dollars for two days certification.

I do not think that Hock makes people sell his products and or use his sales material in their business.

I do not think Hock's Instructors are selling the idea that they have some great knowledge as passed down from soldiers who have died in the protection of their country and they are the best as they have to be in a constant state of readiness as they live in a 24 / 7 combat zone.

The extreme hype as sold by KMWW does not come anywhere close to the realities of the real world and other militaries of the world,then again KMWW is a CIVILIAN Model/version of H2H,as Elad and Nir and others have said,Civilian,not the same,and very different from that taught to and used by the IDF.

Hey but what do I know ,to get any of my Black Belts took a minimum of 450 hours to get to the level to be able to teach.
Hey ,I am sure people who train really hard for 35 hours ,and are in shape physically to meet the demands of the fitness class,are great at teaching and passing on true life saving techniques for street survival.
At 150 hours of demanding classes spread over how ever long it takes to raise enough to take another level of instruction I am sure they are unbelievable teachers,and know all the nuances of the techniques,or know how to run a good sparring / fitness class.

Again Great marketing Plan,with Great sales Hype.

[Kentbob]

I like the fact that you rarely, if ever, hold back, Jim.  Someday, I hope we can hoist a frosty, barley infused, malty beverage together.


Kent

[JimH]

That would be great Kentbob,who knows what the future has in store.
All the Best

[SileyEric]

Jim,

I don't have to go to Israel to learn Krav Maga, or to be a good Christian or Jew, for that matter.  The material is all here, and it has been for years.  Like every other system, it belongs to the world and is not a secret.  You can learn good Krav Maga in the midwest, from an IDF combat veteran, in Kansas City, of all places.  I don't think you'll notice much difference between the way he teaches, I do, or any of the instructors at our facility.  Some of the guys have military experience, some don't, but all are tough and teach well.

I still don't understand this distinction between "military" and "civilian" Krav Maga.  I've trained with IDF veterans.  They say it's the same material, just to train hard.  They beat on each other a bit more and run drills more intensely in some units than you'll see in many schools in the U.S., but there's nothing keeping us from training harder.  Jim, you're very suspicious of over-hyped marketing, but still seem to think that there are secrets IDF Spec Ops guys have the rest of us don't.  I have no doubt there are secret tactics, but I doubt they have to do with unarmed combatives. 

Whenever an organization grows exponentially and has success, even if it falters, I want to learn from the example.  In martial arts or self defense training, or any other endeavor.  If you think every part of KMWW is bullshit, from the beginning to the end, I'm not going to try to change your mind - but, they didn't get to be the largest, most affluent organization by doing everything entirely wrong.  No one has ever been FORCED into a franchise contract.  You can say the old deals were overpriced and people couldn't make good on them, but these are grown-ups, and virtually any deal can be renegotiated if it isn't working.  I don't have to pay a franchise fee for the $750 training we mentioned earlier.

You made the remark that conditioning to fight can be done outside the self defense environment.  Do we teach in the same country?!?!  I have had maybe two people come through my door that are in the kind of condition day one to do what I'm asking them to do in a 60 minute class.  If getting them fighting fit AND teaching self defense is not what you think we're being paid for, we're in different lines of work.  I can't tell you how many times I've had guys walk through the door that are black belts in one thing or another, marathon runners, or body builders, who can't make it through a challenging warm-up.

I think having a good combative fitness program, even separate classes for this, is both good for self defense training AND a revenue generator.  I noticed that over time, the people I had taking intense, 60 minute fitness classes involving calisthenics, bag work, and mit work who were NOT taking self defense classes were developing better strikes (training twice per week) than the more hard-core self defense students.  Sheer repetition and muscle memory.  Is this such a bad thing?  It is if I tell them they are training to be commandos, but it's not if they are paying to get fit, and learning how to strike better than they thought they could in the bargain.

When is the last time you saw a really over-conditioned fighter or martial artist? 

[Black Knife]

If you make your students hit focus mitts and kick shields for hour then what is the difference between your class and a kickboxing class? How much time is spent on learning the techniques itself. Where is the sparring and if you spar what does it consist of in your class? What makes your Krav Maga different from other martial arts?

[whitewolf]

SileyEric-I never have seen a overconditioned fighter or Martial artist either.
By the way good post.
WW(ELB) Speed of Light

[JimH]

quote SileyEric:
"Jim, you're very suspicious of over-hyped marketing, but still seem to think that there are secrets IDF Spec Ops guys have the rest of us don't.  I have no doubt there are secret tactics, but I doubt they have to do with unarmed combatives."

I do not believe in Secrets as I know that there are nonewhen it comes to martial arts/martial skills.
I have trained with krav Maga Instructors who trained in Israel in the 1970's and who were in the IDF and they say there is not much difference.
We have Others on this forum who did or are serving in the Israeli SF /IDF that say there is a BIG Difference.

We know through Imi's own words that he created a CIVILIAN version of Krav Maga.
If we go by his word then there is a difference.
If there is a difference then those who teach the civilian version and claim connection to the Military and its required use of Krav Maga are fooling the public.

As I said,a true street altercation,which is not an agreed to exchange,lasts seconds not minutes.
If one feels that they must be Combat Fit,what ever that is ,and able to fight for 3-5 minutes or push through a Rough 60 minute aerobic class to fight for their lives on the street they are wrong.

To KMWW fitness,as said,is an income source not to be over looked,but to be sold as part of the need to survive a street fight.

Classes where I train and teach are 90 minutes and we warm up with stretches for 10-15 minutes and then we TEACH Martial skills,techniques that show a student that if they become a victim how to terminate the conflict quickly.

Last night I showed students the difference between sport ground fighting,going for position ,locks and submission (time consuming and energy depleting),versus street ground.
Example :
Victim is down,how ever they got there,they are mounted,someone sitting on their chest puching or choking them.

I showed students how to parry/pass the strikes,
punch to the groin to draw the attackers face and head down
and then grab the throat and choke as we buck and roll over from bottom position
maintaining throat control.

Total time of execution less than 10 seconds from  bottom to dominating the event.

No need for superior fitness to execute.

We do not teach or create fitness marathoners,we teach everyone young ,old,men ,women,fit and unfit,not just young fit people.

Hey but I am not certified by Wingate as a SPORT / FITNESS program as many Krav Maga schools / people are.

As to my thinking that KMWW is BS.
Well Mr Levine was GIVEN Rank he NEVER trained to that level for.
KMWW is Marketed very well ,of that there is no issue.
The marketing though tells people they will learn the art that Israeli soldiers have learned and depended on for surviving in a 24/7 nation at constant war and threat.

People come in ,sign up and then find they are subjected to mostly exercises and conditioning over pure self defense,though as Tae Bo they do many of the exercises as martial skills.

Again those who took Tae Bo thought that Martial exercise taught them martial skills that would allow them to defend thmselves,which we all know is not the case.

No one who teaches KMWW and many other forms of KM ever disputes that they mostly spend class time taching fitness over Martial techniques,they are well marketed  one step above Tae Bo classes.

Billy Blanks used to fill his fitness center several times a day for his Tae Bo classes,so let us not confuse combat fit with the ability to survive a true street combat situation.

Quote Black Knife:
"What makes your Krav Maga different from other martial arts?"

That is a great question.
I think,What makes Krav Maga different than other martial arts is the sales hype that it is modern military use combatives.

Other than that it is Tae Bo +,or Kick Boxing
They do work a lot on drills in which many students with shields close in on a singular student and force them to kick,strike and fight the group to get away,which is a mind set builder,but not practical for street application.
Randori is more applicable and builds a similar mind set.

Again my view based on my experiences with KMF,KMWW,KAPAP,Combat Survival KM,and the views of some students who have been involved in KMWW.

[SileyEric]

JimH - I do appreciate the fact that you're insisting on integrity, and this whole thread started from Rob Hamic's attempt to state the truth.

From Blackknife's comment - "What makes my Krav Maga different from other martial arts?" Although I've been training since 1986, I haven't seen everything, and so I can't say how it is different from everything else out there.  I have no doubt that many people on this forum train hard, follow good lesson plans, and work good techniques/drills/scenarios.  What made Krav Maga different from the other things I'd done was the way the class plans, techniques, and drills were laid out in order to build proficiency quickly.  All of the military and law enforcement people who train with me see this immediately.  There isn't any fluff or anything mysterious about it.  This may not make it unique, but in my local market, what we do stands out.

Imi did want to bring Krav Maga to civilians, but this did not mean having a civilian version.  Everyone in Israel does their service unless an exception is made, so everyone is military at some point.  He wanted organizations that could effectively bring Krav Maga to people who were not Israeli and serving in the IDF.

Some of these arguments about Imi and succession are almost religious in their fervor.  Imi did not GIVE Darren Levine his rank.  If he is GIVING rank or selling it, all of the documentation Rob is listing is not worth anything, because it questions his integrity.  The first time I saw the accusation that Darren paid for his rank was in the USA Dojo piece, from Jim Wagner's buddies.  Quote it if you want, but I think the whole thing was propaganda.

Imi had the full list of long-time students that Rob has published, guys who had been with him for years and years.  My understanding is that he wanted Krav Maga to be global, so that all free people, westerners, and allies of Israel would be able to "walk in peace."  That's the motto.

Building a global presence requires a different skill set than running a local gym and sports association in Israel.  Imi gave two very talented instructors, Eyal Yanilov, and Darren Levine, his "Founders Diplomas of Excellence," and his blessing to take Krav Maga to the world.  It takes business know-how, entrepeneurship, and the ability to work with Europeans and Americans to do this.  Eyal built the IKMF, and logged over 200 travel days per year, going all over Europe and all over the world teaching instructors.

Darren built Krav Maga Worldwide, which was the U.S. organization, and brought Krav Maga to prominence in the U.S.  My opinion is that these guys were chosen because they were excellent senior instructors, and could bring Krav Maga to a much larger audience (and therefore do more good!) than the senior instructors in Israel.  If not for their efforts, we would not be having these conversations.

JimH - Regarding "most street fights being over in seconds rather than minutes."  I think it is very good to train to end things quickly.  I agree with this, but have found that the attitude can also be a cop-out on conditioning.  Whether it's over in 10 seconds and everything goes as my students have drilled it, or it takes 2 minutes, or 15 minutes in a fight for their lives, I want my guys and gals to be able to out-last an attacker.  Mentally and physically.  This is the way we train - for things to not go as well as they do in dojo.

We are in 100% agreement that fitness classes should not be marketed as self defense.  I'm teaching the general public.   They need to get in shape to fight, just like military recruits.

[robbhamic]

I think this is a good discussion.  I have my own opinions like everyone else and since February 2010 the history of some systems of RBSD and  Krav Maga have been my business.  I am an investigator.  I got conned so I am not all that smart.  I wanted to find the truth and I found it in Israel.  I support the Israeli Krav Maga Association and I believe in the truth.  Most people in this fight say it is political.  That is an easy excuse.  I look back to the time when everything wasn't splintered and find the source documents and see where it takes me from there.  I am finding that there are some really compelling inconsistencies that don't pass the smell test. 

I am finding many people out of Israel and today all of the way in Japan that were conned by Eyal.  Turns out there is a ton of press there from the early 2000's where he makes his own statements in magazines and interviews.  They are false.  I can prove it.  I released a small story today and I will probably do one a day but wait until it comes out.  It is like CKM on steroids.  i though Moni did some crazy things and made millions. Wow.  Don't forget that Eyal was FIRED from the IKMF in May of this year by its board.  That had nothing to do with me.  I am just looking for the truth and I deserve it because I love Israeli Krav Maga.

I am not saying that Eyal isn't one of Imi's top students or that Darren bought his black belt.  I don't believe that stuff.  I am not saying that the only place a person can learn good Israeli Krav Maga is the IKMA.  I AM SAYING that there are some long believed lies out there that I am going to show because I can.  Because it is the right thing to do.  I stand on my word. 

No disrespect to anyone here but it is all coming out.  All of it.

Robb Hamic

[JimH]

From KMWW web site:

1964 Imi sets out to create a krav Maga usable for Civilians.
(Means it was changed to meet the needs of the populace not the military)

1981 Darren goes to Israel and attends 6 weeks certifcation to teach Krav Maga.

1982 Imi comes to US visits Levine

1983 Darren forms Krav Maga Association of America.

1984 Imi comes to US again,visits levine and Darren is given Imi's Black Belt

1987 Levine begins to teach KM to Police and Military.
...
Does anyone know what the time in training requirements were by Imi in the KMA for the first rank of yellow belt ?

12 months of 4 hours per week to get the first rank of yellow belt.
(208 hours)

Does anyone know what the time in training requirements were by Imi in the KMA for Black Belt ?
10 years of training at 4 hours per week
(2080 hrs)

Darren Levine goes and takes a six week course of 8 hours per day,6 days per week,lol.
(does anyone believe that)
(Let us give him the 288 hours)
he is CERTIFIED to teach with no ranking.
(288 hours is just above the requirements for  yellow belt)
Hey Darren lets Yellow and orange belts teach,right ?

Imi comes to the US twice and Darren gets a Black Belt ?

I wonder if any of the others who attended the 6 week certication got Black Belts ?
If so  I wonder how long it took them ?

Anyone really believe Darren earned that Black Belt ?
(he was at minimum 1500 hours short of requirement for Black Belt as required in the KMA)

Why did Darren decide to start his own federation ?
Why did Darren try to control all KM,even the KMA,his first group under Imi and with Imi's SENIOR Instructors ?

Look at Darren's tape " Introduction to Krav Maga" ,he tells you it is an Exercise class which teaches you a skill.

Now must we be as fit as military troops in active service to defend ourselves ?
Military fitness in the military is not to be fit to fight hand to hand,it is to be fit enough to most times carry yourself,your equipment and weapons into combat and engage an enemy,many times with this gear on your body.

The IDF,like most basic military services spends MINIMAL time on H2H.
Most H2H is to create a Mind Set of FIGHT,over real self protection skills on the battle field.

I am not new to making these points about Darren Levine and KMAA /KMWW
I have been posting on this same subject on this forum for 4 or 5 years.

This thread asks "Are there any reputable sources of Krav Maga"
I am replying to this question,with my opinion
I am not selling an art or anything to anyone on here
I give opinions and speak on training and solutions that I train that work for me and may be of interest to others.
I have trained in and or experienced  MANY arts and or systems,so my opions are not based on someone elses view,but mine and or my reading and research on subjects and personalities in the arts.

I understand people must defend what they sell.

Hype sells and to me Darren Hyped his version of KM,Great Marketing as before him KM instructors and KM were hardly known.
Levine has done a great job of hyping the qualifications of the IDF,IDF Special Forces and their H2H.,many are teaching thanks to Levine.
(Reality is that what is taught is no different than traditional arts,just a good spin on how important it is in the world today in protecting Israeli's in Israeland their being under constant hreat in the region)

[SileyEric]

JimH,

You make some good points.  I had not done the math on Darren Levine's time in training for his black belt.  From all of the documentation Rob Hamic has produced, you can see that there was meticulous record keeping.  I had never done the math on Darren's black belt or questioned if he earned it, because Imi Lichtenfeld, the creator of Krav Maga, awarded him his black belt, along with all of the rankings on the list Rob provided.

Many people who have opinions about Krav Maga haven't trained in it enough to know this very important point: it isn't complicated.  This is part of the problem in awarding rank and doing quickie instructor certifications.  Some people with good martial arts backgrounds can learn it very, very quickly.  I think it would be different if Darren Levine's rank were awarded by a senior Israeli instructor, but it was given to him by the creator of Krav Maga - who didn't just visit him in the U.S., but stayed at his house and continued to teach him.  The other point I'd offer is that anyone who has every trained with Darren knows that he is very, very good at Krav Maga and teaching.

One reason for someone to try to control the Krav Maga name and the system in the U.S. is to control quality, and ensure certain standards.  The other reason is profit motive.  I think one of the most valid criticisms I've heard about KMWW licensees and the guys out west came from a very prominent figure in the martial arts community.  He told me this: "when it comes to money and territory, they are worse than the old Karate guys."

I've seen a bit of this.  Allowing people to lock in exclusivity, "longitude and lattitude," is a problem.  Nobody buying a franchise wants to see another one open up one block away.  But, martial arts and self-defense instruction is a very personalized service.  The quality of instruction and relationship with an instructor is very important, and it's hard to put that in a formula.

I don't feel like I have to defend what I sell, as you put it.  If the facts change or I'm doing something wrong, I'll change what I'm doing.  For me, it's really about training the right way, and offering the best instruction I can offer to my students.

Back to our back-and-forth on fitness - Yes, I do think that every martial artist, every self defense student, every cop, and especially every instructor should be at least in the kind of shape that an active-duty marine is in.  In my mind, this is part of the martial way - the path we've chosen.  If more of the civilian population was in this kind of shape, this would be a safer and better country...in my opinion.

[robbhamic]

I am going to start doing some math about this topic on my blog about all of them.  Look at this document from the student (Levine) to the teacher (Yanilov).  Interesting hat this was written in 1986, less than 5 years after Levine started studying..

http://www.fakeselfdefenseinstructors.com/2010/08/this-is-an-interesting-document-it-seems-to-have-been-written-in-1986-by-darren-levine-to-eyal-yanilov-it-is-interesting-be.html