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[Hock]

Organizing martial/survival rank and instructorships while maintaining a business model that remains successful enough for the parent organization to stay open and working, is a tweeking, evolving challenge.

It can be a compromise of doing some good where no good was done before. Doing some education where there was none before. This is a whole subject I have strong opinions on.

Do you?

Hock

[Hock]

Here is an example of what I mean. Everyone can relate to the example.

The so-called Dog Brother stick fighting. Everyone knows about this. Hard sticks, little gear. Real tough. (The analogy has nothing to do with the Dog brothers per say...just a universal example.)

Can you do this three times a week, for an hour each time? No, All the students would hospitalized or dead in a month. And Denny would be a full time lawyer without students to operate a school. Which is my point of discussion here.

Instead you meet three times a week, working on the strategies involved IN A SLOWER PACE and with more safe gear. Then sparingly, you do the stick fight. Just enough to place it all in proper, reality perspective.

Now lets look at the other subjects -  knife, and unarmed, even handgun training. How tough, how regular is the toughness to maintain a school of education?

Hock

[sarguy]

What comes to mind, in addition to tempering the "balls to the wall" to keep from wrecking the client base, is the length of time and level of mastery needed to make rank or certify. My old aikido club tested once a year, max. Meanwhile, some of the other clubs that existed around here tested whenever a student looked like they were ready. Some would only accept perfect technique, others just looked for "adequate" technique and expected mastery to come later.

[Professor]

Boxing!   Tougher game than I thought it was.....kicks my ass from time-to-time.

[Black Knife]

When I first started my academy I had a hard program. We would spar hard all the time and sometimes some guys would get knocked out. We became known as a rough school. However my retention rate was low. At the time I did not care because teaching part time and for me it was just extra cash in my pocket since I had a full time in Law Enforcement. Now that I teach full time student retention is more important to me than ever.

I have found out over the years that not all people are willing to train hard all the time.......some don't even like to spar. That is what makes teaching some what difficult....you have to have a training program that is meets all students needs. Now I have to say that my academy is doing quite well since I have a beginner and advance program.

[Kelly Knight]

Exactly why I love studying and teaching arts that have nothing to do with how "tough" they are.

It's a much easier sell, too. There isn't a modern, thinking, civilian student alive that believes that any martial art is tougher than a bomb or biological attack.

Instead, they are seeing the big picture, wholistic benefits of the study of martial arts. The Hockessin crew and I were just discussing this over dinner together this past weekend. The things they were saying were supported what I've been thinking for the past ten years or so, regarding this shift in marketing/thinking/business.

Of course, I'm sure there will be some that disagree with what I'm saying. And, it doesn't apply whatsoever to LEOs and military personnel on a professional level. But, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax, isn't it....

Kelly Knight

[Canuk]

?It's a much easier sell, too. There isn't a modern, thinking, civilian student alive that believes that any martial art is tougher than a bomb or biological attack."

That's not true, I hear great things about Jim Wagners training

[sarguy]

I shall use my Falling Wonder Palm Of LLAP GOCH to defeat the Sarin gas!

Regarding students not wanting to spar, has anyone here ever recommended some small amount of sparring on an occasional basis to "affirm" the skills these people have been learning? Perhaps just once, as a rank requirement? Not that I would expect a 103 lb vegetarian accountant from Berkley to suit up and compete in a cage match, but if a person is learning something like, say rape prevention, etc, is it a disservice to allow them to acquire a supposed skill set without making them apply it? (This makes me think of the "Forms: Useful or Not?" thread) Is that too tough? Maybe for some. Maybe not enough for others.
 
Seems to me that "tough", nowadays, is more of a reputation or advertising issue. IMHO, there have always been people willing to go harder and longer than other groups, regardless of marketing, and even independent of their own conscious assessments. Did the Spartans think their training was "tough", or just necessary to win?

Then there's the "We'll MAKE you tough" sell...versus the "our training is tough" sell...

[Hock]

"has anyone here ever recommended some small amount of sparring on an occasional basis to "affirm" the skills these people have been learning?"

Running right beside my 10 level system is an entire kickboxing program. But I do not want to turn people into kickboxers, The side program is there to have people interact with speed and get knocked around a bit. As Joe Lewis once said, "Nothing replaces ring time."

I don't think that sucessfully engaging into a duel kick box with an enemy, even mindlessly because you always do it a lot, is the most successful, best way to win an actual encounter with a criminal or an enemy soilder. It is what I have called forever, the "Myth of the Duel."

We kick box throughout and a mandatory session inside the Level 10 so-called "Black Belt" test. But we DO NOT want to turn our combatives folks into kick boxers. We are supposed to beat kick boxers by not becoming them, by cheating and so forth.

We also have to knife spar and stick fight. Just cuz..... and my version of the gun course is interactive gun fighting with any kind of sims ammo.

Hock
  

[Dawg]

Regarding students not wanting to spar, has anyone here ever recommended some small amount of sparring on an occasional basis to "affirm" the skills these people have been learning? Perhaps just once, as a rank requirement? 

I let my students know right from the beginning:
If you want to advance (under me) in Hock's system (that's really all I teach these days) you will do some sparring, with safety gear, in the Unarmed Combatives, Knife/CounterKnife, and SDMS programs. You cannot certify past Level Four if you will not spar and show some proficiency in the material. Period.

You also never have to certify. Just train to train. Seems to work so far.

We only spar once a month or so, and I keep the "lions" separated from the "lambs" (that's a little tidbit Milldog shared with us that's worked out really good for me ).

I've got regulars who can't wait to spar in the special weekend sessions (no extra charge, BTW); I've got others who never show.

Seems to keep everybody happy!

[Dawg]

Hock,
You just beat me to the punch! You posted just before I did.

Sorry for any redundancy!

[Kentbob]

Is the system tough?  Does it build toughness instead?  Or is it a way for people to claim some sort of bragging rights?  "I do system X, and that makes me a bad MoFo."  Like the guys I constantly see wearing Tapout or some other MMA gear.  The majority want to be associated with that reputation, and have some of it rub off on them.

Is the material I teach hard to learn, in that sense of tough?  No, I don't think so.  The majority is what I've learned from Hock and Guru Hallock, along with my own experiences in various TMA and real life encounters. 

Do I think that the material and my teaching method build tougness?  In the sense that I believe it builds tenacity, yes.  From my friend who now lives in Vegas who was once afraid to punch me, and eventually ended up leaving a few knots on my head and a bite mark on my ribs.  She once jacked a dude up in a bar with a rear armbar hammerlock for putting a hand on her after she told him not to.  I don't say this because I taught her everything.  I facilitated it.  When I teach someone something, what I do is facilitate them finding a new strength or ability they didn't realize they had.  Whether it's FMA, a new lift, or better technique in the shotput.

As for walking around with my head high, a chip on my shoulder, or just generally thinking I'm tough?  Absolutely I do.  I know when there's no one around who could stop me from teaching some punk a lesson.  People, especially in the Guard, have gotten in my face, and started fights with me, or at least threatened.  I know that when it drops in the pot in a situation like that, I'm going to come out on top 95% of the time, because of training, dedication, ability, and just plain meanness.  These are the things I attempt to pass on to other people.  Some are more dedicated, some less.  Some have more natural ability, some less.  Some have to work a little more to get in touch with their inner Hulk.

When I'm evaluating someone, which is pretty much all the time, I don't look for perfect technique.  Instead, I look for understanding of the technique, and curiosity about it.  There will generally be time to refine the technique to the point of perfection.  In a fight, I'm more concerned that whoever I've taught be able to inflict more damage than they receive, in a responsible manner.  In addition, I'm usually evaluating morals and ethics.  I've known more than a few people who had some time in FMA that I would never consider teaching or training with.  Potheads, mainly, around here. 

I'm not certain that toughness really needs to exist in most systems that are well grounded in reality and common sense.  Mental toughness and physical readiness are both byproducts of training, whether from sparring, statue drills, forms, or calisthenics.  If there is a system that is focused on some definition of "toughness", it's safe to say that it's probably a very small niche.


Kent

[Black Knife]

My belief, that stems from my days in the Corps, is you have to train hard to be hard.....no other way of doing it. At my Academy sparring is done everyday with or with out strikes. You have to spar everyday in order to get used to the resistance. Nobody is just going to let you place them in a choke or armbar. You have to be used to going against a live resisting opponent.

Sparring is also important any type of combat training whether it is stand-up fighting, stick fighting or knife fighting. Doing forms or drills alone will not help. For instance the sparring that I see in most Karate studios is like tag....it does not realistic enough. That is why you will hear of a black belt in Karate getting his ass kicked by some thug on the streets. He was not properly prepared for the violence involved in street combat.

I try to explain to my students that fighting in a controlled environment is a lot different that fighting on the streets.....it is chaotic and violent. So sparring is the closest thing to match what you will encounter in the real world. So if you don't spar don't expect to avoid getting your ass kicked.

[Kentbob]

And when I train Paratroopers, I train 'em hard.  Because the reality of a Paratrooper's next experience is somewhat different than the reality of the everyday martial arts student.  Most of the people that I've taught did not want to be "hard".  They wanted to be able to defend themselves.  Me?  When I first started I wanted to be able to open up a can of whoopass when I needed to.  But then, I was a young paratrooper at the time, ready to parachute onto the beaches of Normandy, or the plains of Afghanistan. 

I agree, and have agreed plenty of times, that sparring is important.  What is more important is skill development.  Take, for instance, my brother.  1st degree brown belt, which is just a hair shy of getting his black belt in Judo.  Time after time he can take me down, despite the fact that I've got nearly 60 pounds on him.  But his striking sucks.  Specifically his targeting.  He keeps hitting me in the shoulders, or the meaty portion of my back.  He is not the first person that I've seen do this, with this sort of problem.  Throwing someone like that, who has no real striking skill, into a sparring match is quite possibly a recipe for injury.  And so he got hurt, blocking a kick with his kneecap.  When I was first starting out, my sparring looked more like flailing than anything.  Years later, I'm fairly decent.  At sparring.  Sparring is not what I want to be good at.  What I want to be good at, what I want anyone I teach to be good at, is opening up a 55 gallon drum of whoopass on a bad guy.  Sparring, in my experience facilitates this.  It does not make it complete.  The idea of combat scenarios picks up where sparring and skill drills leave off.  The more detailed the scenario, the more the student learns to flip his switch.  With control, of course.  I don't have the equipment or money to buy one o' them fancy suits to let people whale on someone without serious injury.

AND, sparring isn't for everyone.  I knew a guy down in Alabama who taught Goju-Ryu karate.  His students never did sparring, nor did his jiu-jitsu students.  This man had been in scrapes, armed and unarmed.  One could tell that his students would be able to flip the switch in a real life fight. 

Those that want more, should seek out more.  I enjoy sparring.  Except for getting punched in the eye.

Kent

[JimH]

1960 to 1980 training was tough,hard and bloody.
Safety gear was  maybe a cup.
You sparred hard and at every class.
You hit and got hit,you got tough.
You went to work or school black and blue,cut,black eyes and or splints.

Then came gear,points,no contact,law suits, and all changed.

Now few spar hard
Fewer use no gear
Now you hit and the opponent does not feel it
You get hit and you do not feel it

Then you get into a street attack,get hit,fold and go down.

We have come a long way baby,lol.
That is why people are looking to Reality Based arts as it is some type of return to the past,though it is sold as the answer to today and the future,Realistic but not real and not full contact,yet better than many alternatives.

Yeah,and on the battlefield our troops use sport,lol.

Sparring ,even with all the gear,teaches us to hit and move and get hit,even though we do not feel it.(fight mindset /warrior mindset)
It teaches the fight phase well,nothing more,nothing less.
It teaches free flow movement,yet it is not replicable,(unless taped and rerun)

It does not solve problems in contact,it just allows you to try over and over to have a better outcome,hopefully if beaten by others in your class long enough, sooner  or later you will beat them,lol.(you catch on to their patterns sooner or later)
AHHH progress.

Just my two cents,so not worth much.