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[Hock]

Touching Hands
There is an old school ku-raty term - “touch hands with the master.” Whether you are drinking sake at the lobby of Mamasan’s or a beer at Billy Bobs, when martial arts people gather and gossip one subject routinely arises - experience. This or that person has done, or not done, this or that. And inside the discussion, the topic of how people were trained is a favorite. Old timers use the phrase “touch hands with the master.” They ask the question, “how much as he touched hands with the master?” Or, “has he ever touched hands with the master?” How much time, if any, has anyone really spent and trained the school’s creator, founder, master? How important is this in the big picture, or is this just sake and beer talk?

The master thing conjures up images of Uma Thurman in Kill Bill climbing the Aztec stairs to train for years with that abusive Kung Fu guy with the three-foot, white beard. Or even Yoda in Star Wars. There is a child-like wonderment about it.

First, I am just not fond of the term master in common martial arts usage. But I have personal problems with ideas of pre-set power titles and automatic respect. That’s just me, a bit on the rebellious side. I hated saluting strangers in the Army. If you call me master, or Guro, or whatever, it will flat embarrass me and I will immediately tell you to call me “Hock.” Hell, I ain’t even a “mister.” Just Hock. I am just a guy who has collected some tricks that some people want to know. We in the SFC use the term master in the same context as the military or police might, such as “master sergeant,’ or “range master.” If you are master, level 10 with us? You are simply a range master of your own range. You run a teaching operation.

Having played this name game, there is a point or two behind the basic discussion. How important is it, that a student teach hands with the head teacher? Can they learn just as well from the down-line, local teachers. Well, I think so! Sometimes maybe even better. It is only when the business claims of who-is-who caretakers and descendants and dynasties are fought for, do the real “touching hands” debates begin. Also people like to play the ”I was closer to him than you were,” blather games.

And there are really other concerns for me. Quality control and personnel control. There are basic, advanced, expert and Level 10 black belt/range masters I have never met out there, all over the planet. People “made” by people I have “made.” And so on. I am supposed to see these people as I travel the world and usually do catch up with them eventually. But as it all grows and grows? These are not new problems. This was kicked over by the monks, and pondered in the Japanese sword schools; worried over in the fencing halls of Europe. I imagine what Ed Parker thought about this in the 1960s? What about all the Koreans who invented these huge business operations.

One solution is to create the annual seminar/gathering and then twist some wrists and hyper-extend some elbows to get people off the couch and attend. Met, Greet. Renew. Touch hands. Sometimes the bigger the organization? Touching hands may only be a handshake and hello. Ed Parker’s son is still busy shaking these new hands to this day. In military and police training, systems require annual or semi-annual certifications, in a way - touching hands to keep “in touch" with the program, the doctrine and its leaders.

Remy Presas had a funny, broken-English way of saying this, “You study to de’ hands of the master.” Remy broke my nose with a stick in my living room at 12:30 am while training one night, back in 1992. I guess you can’t get more touching hands that. And that is still one of my favorite moments in life. Sick ain’t it? But I guess there is some intrinsic, mysterious, almost genetic value to time spent - “touching hands with the master.”

Now, please pass the sake.

[sarguy]

Thought-provoking stuff.

[Professor]

One solution is to create the annual seminar/gathering and then twist some wrists and hyper-extend some elbows to get people off the couch and attend. Met, Greet. Renew. Touch hands. Sometimes the bigger the organization? Touching hands may only be a handshake and hello. Ed Parker’s son is still busy shaking these new hands to this day. In military and police training, systems require annual or semi-annual certifications, in a way - touching hands to keep “in touch" with the program, the doctrine and its leaders.

Remy Presas had a funny, broken-English way of saying this, “You study to de’ hands of the master.” Remy broke my nose with a stick in my living room at 12:30 am while training one night, back in 1992. I guess you can’t get more touching hands that. And that is still one of my favorite moments in life. Sick ain’t it? But I guess there is some intrinsic, mysterious, almost genetic value to time spent - “touching hands with the master.”

Now, please pass the sake.

My right wrist still doesn't work correctly after being Remy throwing dummy....a layin' upon of the hands....

[rutleddc]

I went to a 3-day Remi seminar in Harrisburg PA around 1998 - I had to wear long sleeve shirts for days to cover up my wrist bruises (to go I had to call in sick on Friday )

[Kelly Knight]

I have two things to add to this thread.

I used to study a martial art that was headed by a guy who learned from the original master through prison bars, supposedly never touching hands with him... how's that for a neat magic trick!?! I'm not talking some nobody, I'm talking about a well known martial artist (at least in the circles I run in... that may not be saying much!).

Touching hands is essential in Wing Chun (Chi Sao). I feel that it's important that every student, new or old, touch hands with the teacher. I do it every class, with every one of my students, so that they get yet another way of understanding what I am teaching. Verbal, written, visual...and touch!

Kelly Knight

[JimH]

Touching hands with the Master or Founder of a system or style is important to a down line student only if the teacher / master has not changed the stystem or art by adding to or subtracting from the original teachings.

A student of Ueshiba for example would have different recollections of training had he studed with Ueshiba when Aikido was closer to Jujitsu and hard,than if he trained with Ueshiba during the middle or start of enlightenment and or at the end product of Ueshiba's art.

A down line student of a first generation student of Ueshiba who studied the hard style would be hard pressed to go to the Master,Ueshiba,in his later years to touch hands and find that there was hardly any touching ,just implied touching,compliant touching.

Same with a student/instructor of JKD.
Each Instructor has a varied teaching point and methodology and so trying to find one closest to the original teachings of Bruce Lee would depend on the time the Instructor trained with Bruce Lee.

I teach the same materials as I was taught,only I teach them with a diifferent aspect.
I teach the art as taught to me with influences of other arts and other masters I have met and trained with through the years that have something to offer the people I teach.

Touching hands with the founder of the system I study would be different for those I teach than my teachings in some regards and different in aspects to my teachers  teachings,though the base art is the same,techniques the same just a different entry,different mind set of application,different use ,or more usage,of atemi / striking on entry.

If on the other hand one studied an art that  claims to have stayed the same as originally taught then touching hands with the founder,master ,might be nice but then is it neeeded ,as if it has not changed then you know what the founder wants and expects and teaches yet maybe the Master / founder could show you how to tweek a certain movement or technique to make it work better for you.

Then also what are the rules of the oragnization or federation?
Does the founder or head of the oragnization want to meet and see the down line students and ensure they are doing what he expects ?

In the system I study the founder is alive and as an active member of the federation we meet and train with him 2 or more times a year,so that he may reenforce his teachings,demonstrate changes to and or additional techniques and see that down line  students are keeping the Basics of the system as he intended.
(quality control to a degree)

When it comes to promotions at all levels he ,the founder / master signs the promotion as does his down line instructors with the knowledge that he has seen them,met  and trained with the student and knows they are able to make a good showing of the system/art.

Touching hands may be important to the Master,and maybe important to the students teacher and maybe to a  lesser dgeree the student but is it needed to progress and grow in an art or system ?
I doubt it.

[Kentbob]

Good points, Jim.

When I was in Hapkido the system head would come by about every year and give a two day seminar at the school.  Sadly I was always out in the field, but everyone would talk about how much he had helped them with such and such technique, or opened up new nuances to a technique.  To my mind, this is the most important part of training with a master.  Gaining new insight into "old" material.  Training with the system head should always be about helping the students' understanding, and about the founder getting to know the people under him.  In this way the "master" can vouch for the individuals that are displaying the system in his/her name.

I too, do not care for the term "master", as it applies to TMA.  I had a very hard time referring to my hapkido instructor as "master" or "sir", and calling the senior students "sir" or "ma'am".  I still have a hard time rendering that title, or a similar title, to people.  I only do it out of respect for the person and what that person has achieved, and to display the respect or esteem with which I hold a person.  To me a true "master" should be a master instructor, and not claim to be a master practitioner.  In perpetuating and leading a student to knowledge, it is not enough to be a master of the practice of a given art, one must be a master of the techniques needed to pass the art or system on to a student.

Kent

[Benjamin Liu]

IMO for the most part it is like how some people go to a concert to see their favorite singer or group rather than just buy the CD.

Another factor is people using their "connection" to the "master" as a marketing tool, even if they aren't commercial.  I've seen many very poorly-skilled martial artists who use their trips to train in Japan to "prove" they are better skilled martial artists and better instructors than specific people that did not go or did not go as much as them. 

Very few people can afford to go to Japan in terms of money, time off work, time away from family, etc., so those that do (usually because their work brings them there or they have no life outside of training) use the fact that they go to tell those that don't that they are somehow "better."

I've known good and bad martial artists before and after they went to Japan, and the good people were still good and the idiots were still idiots when they got back.

Seriously, some of these guys mainly "teach" and rarely train and they think that a trip to Japan every year or two is better than actual training every week.

That said, IMO it is a good experience to train with the head of your system and maybe meet him, but it is no substitute for regular training, and overall will usually not have an impact on your skill level.  I've known people who only trained in their local dojo, but they trained regularly and trained hard, and they were far better than those who would travel to train.