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Author Topic: Lines in the sand  (Read 970 times)

Hock

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Lines in the sand
« on: September 03, 2010, 08:49:05 PM »

whitewolf

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2010, 09:06:08 PM »


should be shown in every theator nation wide-WW
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rutleddc

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 02:20:30 PM »

Good song, and I love the message.

I am a hard rock fan, not a country fan. But most people making hard rock a liberal douches looking for salvation from all their problems through Marxism. I went to the U of California for for 8 years and found most students (other than engineer/science) were progressives as they call themselves. They all dreamed of the future world where they would be the leaders because they are so smart and gifted, leading the good life of luxury and helping the unwashed masses lead better lives. Little did they know that only a few can be the leaders, driven from work to their luxurious estates with lots of people doing all their chores. Most of them would end up working in the fields and mines and thinking "what went wrong?"  >:(

Anyway, if the going gets tough I will go with the country crowd and not the rock crowd.
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Wardog

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 05:04:24 PM »

 Well, what horseshit.  The Republicans burn money too just on weapons and making sure the rich get richer. The Iraq war drove the American deficit in to the trillions.  America is not a Christian nation. That is why religion is separate from state. Or supposed to be. It's founding fathers were not Christians but Deists(Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible). A song stating that we are a country where the majority believe in a wish-granting magic sky wizard is not comforting.
  Now, let's listen to the song again. It is about people being sick of politicians and corporations getting rich off of them and about the worker. Socialism? People quote from the Declaration of Independance. "All Men Are Created Equal": An odd quote to stand behind from the people of a country that condoned slavery for centuries. Where writers of the document were slaveowners. A country that segregated schools and water fountains well in to the 20th century. A country that wants to constitutionalize a denial of rights to gay people. And even worse, defends their hatred of homesexuality by saying that a book of fairytales says so.
   I don't agree with a lot of what Obama is doing but let's get off our high horse here! And if you think Sarah Palin is fit to lead anything except a blowjob competition then you scare me!
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Hock

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2010, 07:51:32 PM »

    Damn, Wardog, you forget to mention Watergate, the Green River Killer and the Swine Flu.  Unlike Canada, Iraq and Afghanistan, which were conceived, born and function perfectly in one instant, the USA is a painful work in compromising progress. America dreamed of high horses from the beginning. Wants them. Wants to get on them. I dream of high horses. People are the problem. Not the horses.

But, my first point/question would have to be what high horse do we need to get off of?
    This music video is VERY clear that we have fallen OFF a high horse of ideals and would like to get back on it. Or PURSUE a higher horse. This song is about protest from normal, everyday people. Normal people want small government and less taxes. Americans with thinking disorders like to accuse other Americans like this who want to “take their country back" ...ahhh…back to what? They like to ask "Back From whom?" Liberals like to finger point that these wanton Americans want to go back to the “Bush years” that led to this or that problem, or paint wanton folks as wanting the “old racist days.” They are misguided or deceiving politicians or utter morons.

    What normal Americans want is back to is smaller government and way less taxes. We want back from the royalty/politicians. Way less taxes. THAT will grow the economy. For many of us, it seems even a simple-minded buffoon would understand that more money in the citizen's hands means more economic action. Not measly Bush tax cuts.  Not some 2-year little gift of a tax break here or there. We mean significant tax cuts FOREVER. Interesting that John F. Kennedy is in the film saying that each tax dollar takes away from American growth. Kennedy the 1960s democrat it seems, was a conservative.

    A great majority of the Americans people tire of all politicians. A new vast survey came out saying that the favored winner is the new Republican, not the old Republican. And no democrats. We are sick of the old republicans. WE are sick of republican in general. We are sick of all of them. THAT is a high horse. I don't need to listen to the music video a second time to catch that idea. I got that on the first run of the music video. Fixing failure. Fixing discontent. Fixing runaway budgets.

My second point would be about trillions-effect spent in Iraq.
    When I was a kid, a trillion was a joke word, like gazillions. Maybe there were a trillion stars. There are one million, millions in a trillion. A trillion has 12 zeros and is written 1,000,000,000,000. In the American system one billion is 1,000,000,000 and a trillion is 1,000,000,000,000, so one trillion is one thousand times one billion. In the British system one billion is 1,000,000,000,000 and one trillion is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 so one trillion is one million times one billion. Whew! Anyway, a trillion is a mind-boggling lot.
The Iraq war cost about 700 Billion or so?  I read 709 billion the other day in the news, when Obama did his “bait and switch” name-game and changed the name of remaining troops to “non-combat troops.” But I have seen 900 billion from a very liberal viewpoint -  http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm.
   Hard to define I guess? But even 100 billion is a drop in the proverbial bucket to a trillion. If you watch the USA Obama government budget trends, trillions and trillions are tossed around like mad. Record breaking trillions in debt have been added in the few short months this disturbed man-child has taken office.
    Anyway, and this from a country that just spent this - "Washington will spend $2.6 million training Chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly on the job."
    The Iraq war did not cause the INTERNATIONAL/global economic decline. (In fact, lately it was a lasting job's program! Huge contracts! Huge manufacturing!) 
But it is very easy to see how an ignorant person or an outsider, foreigner would assume the Iraq War seemed to toll “trillions” and would seem to cause the collapse of the USA economy, domino-ing into the world collapse.

More points later.

Wardog

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2010, 11:38:02 PM »

 My point is you are wanting something back you never had. You are a powerful nation that has aligned itself with horrible dictators and murderers to keep Latin America yours to rape and pillage. Committed horrific crimes against Native Americans(Canada is just as guilty). And let's just say that a democratically elected government in another part of the world is only a democratically elected government if it elects U.S friendly leaders.  Your forefathers raped and pillaged and stole and colonized and did much the same as they fought for freedom from.
The list of stuff America has done to remain powerful is pretty shameful. I get it and benefit from it but there seems to be a real ignorance or denial in America towards it. 
  I don't think that the Bush years bankrupted America, I am just saying that debt isn't the sole honour of a democratic government.  I do disagree with a lot of what Obama is doing. Defense contracts are one of your biggest taxpayer subsidized adventures.
  Times are changing and the PEOPLE want a lot of shit and that takes tax money. Hell, the "man living by the plow" wants government subsidies and price fixing and tariffs so he doesn't get put out of business by another country trying to develop but having America toss every roadblock it can find in the way if it means preventing an actual free market. Which doesn't exist.
   I do look forward to your upcoming arguments. I can't want to hear your defense of slavery and how America holds strong to it's  claim in believing "All Men Are Created Equal". Hell, what was it..1970 before you legally allowed interracial marriage? What is the majority of America's stance on gay marriage now. What really bothers me even more is Black Americans who voted for Prop 8. Years of victimization and denial of equal rights and they go to the polls and start denying other's rights.
   And your defense of Sarah Palin's qualifications to lead America will be priceless.
   Love ya Hock but I think Americans are a bit delusional and havea huge ability to turn a blind eye to what America has done and continues to do to remain a superpower.  They think America is all financial aid, self-sacrifice and halos.
   
   
   
 
 
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Hock

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 08:29:50 AM »

"And your defense of Sarah Palin's qualifications to lead America will be priceless."

All those other comments are coming, but I know we can quickly cover Sarah right now. Where does it say that I want Sarah Palin to be president? I don't think she should become president. If she runs it will be a field day for the democratic media. We need a conservative version of Mr Magic Obama to sweep the field from many angles and levels. For smaller government. Less tax. Sarah is just a cardboard cut-out, a poster, a symbol of a feeling to "throw the bums out." Some Americans need that symbol. Sarah's real and full impact is just about the extent of her book sales. That is not enough votes. Huckabee's? The same. Romney? He is the father of a government health care system and a Mormon. Other religions pick on Mormons. It would be tough. They are all still politicians. I'm ready for Ron Paul (who is also a politician!) But I could see where any uniformed outsider or someone form another country would conclude that all Tea Party people want Sarah for president. Not so. But she's a fun date.

And I guess we raped and tortured all the "peaceful pillaged hippy" Indians from coast to coast, who by the way were quite busy raping, torturing and pillaging themselves before we got here and while we got here, as well as had an active slave trade. One tribe in Texas cut the noses off of the faces of other tribal slaves as a sign of slavery. Of course we can't forget that scientists assume that the native American first came over the Bering...from the vicious lands of raping and pillaging and killing over there.
    It is hip (and ignorant) to remake the Indian as Rousseau's Noble Savage. I wonder if the Indians had remained untouched by us/society, sort of in a way like Afghanistan, would they remain in the perennial "Flintstone's" age? Still have nose-less slaves? It wasn't that long ago.

But a great read is
Mayflower - http://www.amazon.com/Mayflower-Story-Courage-Community-War/dp/0670037605

Blood and Thunder - http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Thunder-Carson-Conquest-American/dp/1400031109/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283695653&sr=1-1

In-depth, plain, truthful, unbiased and detailed history. A great many of the Indians would gut you on sight to steal your hat feather. A lot of US immigrants worse hat feathers. We started shooting the feather thieves, and the cycle begins again.

Welcome the human fucking race, dude! The question is when is it going to stop? Possibly when some high-minded people first create a system that is designed to stop it. And then we/they have to drag the human race into up into it. Or shall we say on a higher horse.

Lots of dragging. "Homo sapiens appeared sometime between 100,000 and 300,000 years ago..." says http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3814-dawn-of-human-race-uncovered.html  THAT is a whole lot of dragging. Knuckle-dragging. Centuries of ignorance, violence and war. Did you really think that a piece of paper in 1775 or 1776 would suddenly stop human nature and all that, like a brick wall? You know how short 150 years is in the history of mankind?

Or that America should be condemned for trying? For thinking about it? Perfection is always unobtainable, but should be a up for goal. A marker.

Hock

(The question I wonder is...what combination of motivations makes you, so over hyper  sensitive, so over-enraged, so over-negative, so over concerned, that any mere mention of the USA saying or doing anything becomes an instant bomb blast of American hate-speech and hate rhetoric?)  
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:40:54 PM by Hock »
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Kentbob

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 09:55:34 AM »

You talk a lot of smack about a country you don't live in, Wardog.  Which is your right.  But maybe you should move to the U.S. and try life out first. 

Your comments are about the past, not the present.  Condoned slavery for years?  That was quite a while ago.  The civil rights movement was not that long ago.  Our country is still quite young, as is Canada.

Without the U.S. where would Canada be?  Where would a lot of the rest of the world be without the largest consumer nation in the world?  Don't tell me better off, because that's a load of crap.  You clearly would like to live in your fantasy world where nature has not been despoiled, and we all live off the land, blah blah blah.

The reality is quite different, and you should have the intelligence to realize that.  Someday take a trip the the middleast and see the wonder and awe of a tribal culture, the kind you so clearly worship.  It stagnates progress, the good kind of progress.  It traps it's people in a neverending cycle of revenge and reprisal.  But I wouldn't expect someone in your fantasy world to accept that.

As to all men being created equal, it's a load of horse manure.  It should be before the law.  All are not created equal, but that really torques people off when you say that.  You should already know that I don't believe in universal suffrage.

Why don't you find some actual salient points before you attack a country?  Picking out the weakest candidate in years, and old history are hardly grounds for criticism.

That said, yes, we have done what you say with dictators all over the world.  Our foreign policy sucks.  Does Canada even have a foreign policy?  You mostly sound like you're just butt hurt because we love our country, and you wish you could love yours.  Do something for your country, and maybe you'll be proud some day too.
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Hock

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2010, 10:11:04 AM »

"That said, yes, we have done what you say with dictators all over the world."

Politics make for strange bedfellows. It is always easier to look back and see moves are now considered evil, but at the time, at that moment, what was going on? It's all part of a greater, ugly game that's won some, lost some. All at the time.

I wish the Shah of Iran was still in Iran. Ohhhh, they tortured some people. People disappeared in the night. Who? bad guys? Now the Iranian nimrods might sell small dirty nukes to radical nitwits. One day we'll wake up and half of London will be rubble. Or some Danish city. Or Atlanta. I'll take the old Shah over that any time.

The UN employees are doing some SERIOUS raping and pillaging in the world right. The actual crimes.

Hock

Wardog

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2010, 03:18:35 PM »

  It is great that you want to aspire to something but the song is about wanting something back you never had. That is my point.
  The natives weren't peace-loving people. I never made the claim they didn't fight wars or have slaves. That doesn't dismiss the anhilation of them and the constantly broken treaties every time you found something of value on the land you gave them. "Hey, they did it too", is not a very good argument.
  My comments are about the past?  You mean you aren't currently raping and pillaging Latin America? You didn't knock off thousands upon thousands of Iraqi civilians over a bogus war.
  I get how backassward the muslims are, don't get me wrong. But progress seems to be the U.S, and anyone who does what it says, prospering. Try and nationalize your oil or something and you will be dubbed a bunch of commies and we will fund your overthrow. The CIA isn't exactly in charge of baking cookies.
  Old history?  40 years ago you just started to allow interracial marriage. As we speak your "Christian" nation is doing everything it can to deny homosexuals the right to marry.
   I love my country but when it fucks up, and it is often enough, I don't pretend it isn't, hasn't or doesn't.
    I am not saying you say Sarah Palin is fit to lead but it is scary that anyone rallies around her. Or Glenn Beck. Or Fox news.
    Kentbob, I will never have anything but respect for the men and women who serve their country. I just don't neccesarily respect how their gov't chooses to use them.


   
 
   
   
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Wardog

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2010, 03:30:34 PM »

 I don't deny America is what it is. Certainly would pick it over the majority of countries in the world. Did actually,  but your embassy took all my money before bothering to tell me the visa I was eligible under was no longer applicable.
  Like I said before, it is not being proud to be an American that bothers me. It is being proud to be an American because you think America has done nothing wrong and is only responsible for rainbows and lollipops.
  The Glenn Beckians and Sarah Palins seem to act like the only time America does wrong is when a Democrat does it. Or now, a pussy republican,,in the Tea party's case.
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Hock

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2010, 05:49:32 PM »

It is great that you want to aspire to something but the song is about wanting something back you never had. That is my point.


We once absolutely had a smaller government and lesser taxes. That's what we want back. That least one of things anyway. Third time restating that. Recent and current politicians have been mucking everything up.

Iraq
I think we have gone over and over this ground on Iraq. Even Al Gore raged about Iraq and its weapons. Everyone said they had weapons and even Saddamn pretended to have weapons to scare his neighbors. Everyone includes every nation and their intelligence units. Green Berets have looked me dead in the eye and said weapons went to Syria. We have been over this here before. At the time, it seemed the right thing to do and a good move, right after 9-11.  (actually the movie "W" is not to bad a history on the whole thing) 
    Someday if an idiot turns half of Toronto or Chicago in a nuke ash, everyone will be screaming about how the Americans were asleep at the wheel and the President, Obama or otherwise, failed. Did not take pre-emptive action.

Glen Beck DOES NOT LIKE Republicans. You obviously don't watch the show or know what he is saying in any kind of full context. Palin is not backing Republicans. Look at Alaska. She is backing new, independent outsiders against incumbent republicans. You don't know this because you are foreigner. How would you know the nuances of all this?

Hock

arnold

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2010, 05:40:56 AM »

Sounds like somebody peed in Wardog's butter tarts.....
My point in all of this would be, why do so many people want to come to the US vs anywhere else if they have a choice?
Oh, and I do have a high horse. I built it a few years ago. It's in my backyard so I can look over my fence and keeep an eye on the dykes and fags down the street! ??? :P ::)
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I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

arnold

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2010, 06:06:42 AM »

Oh, and I forgot to admit, I also get up on my high horse when in Ny to keep an eye on those pesky Seneca Indian that the Gov of NY wants to tax on their internet cigarette sales.  Why not just leave the Indians alone and stop giving money to people who don't do anything?)And then when I'm done with that, I drag my horse to the Canadian border and get back up and keep an eye on them wacky Canadians
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I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

rutleddc

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Re: Lines in the sand
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2010, 07:55:56 AM »

It's founding fathers were not Christians but Deists(Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible).

Actually the founding fathers included Christians of many denominations, Jews, atheists, and deists. But they agreed to put their differences aside in an attempt to build something different than what had ever been built before.

Likewise, the founders included both slave owners and those who abhorred slavery. The decision was made to deal with slavery later and make a country first - whether that was right is another issue but your generalization that all were slave owners is rubbish.

If you are going to argue history you need to use factual history, not just the revisionist history seen on Network news, PBS, Huffington Post, et.al. You need to view the elephant from many directions and not just your favorite one.
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